Project Instant Torque...Dynos and info inside!
this so much. Great job!!
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,526
Likes: 4
From: PA
Figured Id check in here gentlemen and give an update as Ive just logged over 1k miles on the setup.
The engine and supercharger are running very well and I havent had a problem with either.
I mentioned in the original post that the meth kit has room for efficiency on the delivery end of things and more specifically the progressive injection. The more I drive the car the more and more Ive noticed this.
~~~The issue~~~
When the car was tuned by Jeff we essentially did two tunes. The first without meth (362whp) the second on the meth (382whp). The car went straight to WOT power pulls on the meth there was no part throttle tuning done we were getting to the end of the tuning session and I never thought to ask about it as I didnt think the meth would spray part throttle. And there in lies the problem!
This I believe is more geared to this style of supercharger but can also be applied well to small quick spooling turbos. Although centrifugals and larger turbos in general can take info from this.
So at well say 30-50% part throttle accelerating Im seeing the meth inj come on at 100% even as low as 3.5k rpm and the wideband reading 9.0-10.0 afr
I can feel the power bog in the engine while this happening obviously, until the rpms rise and or the ecu compensates. So Ive been adjusting the Stage 3 meth controller recently to try and remedy this issue. The meth controller was setup for boost readings ONLY not pulse width which it can also read. 4 psi start and 7psi all in, the mistake I see now is this is a PD style sc at 3k rpm I see 9psi part throttle!
So what Ive done is switched the controller to read both PW and boost readings to adjust for the amount of injection. I started at 50/50 but found it to be no different and have now been using 80%Pw/20%Psi. The manual for the controller recommends for PD blowers increasing the weight of the PW vs boost readings. This has helped quite a bit by itself.
I did some pulls up a hill in 3rd to see the maximum pulse width I might see under full throttle which was about 55% at redline. Using this and watching the pulse width while doing normal everyday driving Ive got a good grasp on rpm vs throttle %. I have the primary nozzle inj to start at 22% Pw and Full on at 30% this is half throttleish at 3-5k rpm which is mainly the problem area Im having during everyday driving. I also raised the boost values to 6 and 9 psi.
For now this is working out MUCH better I still am going to continue to fine tune this meth injection setup to make it a little more progressive and mainly more driveable below WOT.
~Final Thought~
In closing looking back I couldnt have adjusted this controller beyond essentially what it was setup for when I got on the dyno. On the base map I was given to break in my clutch I kept off the throttle so I didnt get to read/test the meth inj. And when I was on the dyno we wouldnt have had enough time to accurately set it up for part throttle because there are just so many different ways to adjust the inputs on the controller.
My goal is to even out the inj between 2.5-4.5k rpm part throttle mainly so it doesnt come on at all really below 50% throttle. And to make it more progressive under full throttle as well from 2.5-5k rpm so it doesnt bog the engine. After Ive got it dialed in the way I want Im going to head back for a retune eventually and see if I pick up any hp.
*** I have the safety injection module which NEEDS to be adjusted along side the meth controller. There were a few times where the safety module would kick on and cut timing to the ecu if it sensed there wasnt enough flow. I currently have it set at 100ml hr ( lowest setting which will need to be adjusted up later ) and to take sample inputs every 1 second not every .1 second I had it setup for from the start. This allows for a more progressive reading on the safety module.
The engine and supercharger are running very well and I havent had a problem with either.
I mentioned in the original post that the meth kit has room for efficiency on the delivery end of things and more specifically the progressive injection. The more I drive the car the more and more Ive noticed this.
~~~The issue~~~
When the car was tuned by Jeff we essentially did two tunes. The first without meth (362whp) the second on the meth (382whp). The car went straight to WOT power pulls on the meth there was no part throttle tuning done we were getting to the end of the tuning session and I never thought to ask about it as I didnt think the meth would spray part throttle. And there in lies the problem!
This I believe is more geared to this style of supercharger but can also be applied well to small quick spooling turbos. Although centrifugals and larger turbos in general can take info from this.
So at well say 30-50% part throttle accelerating Im seeing the meth inj come on at 100% even as low as 3.5k rpm and the wideband reading 9.0-10.0 afr
I can feel the power bog in the engine while this happening obviously, until the rpms rise and or the ecu compensates. So Ive been adjusting the Stage 3 meth controller recently to try and remedy this issue. The meth controller was setup for boost readings ONLY not pulse width which it can also read. 4 psi start and 7psi all in, the mistake I see now is this is a PD style sc at 3k rpm I see 9psi part throttle!So what Ive done is switched the controller to read both PW and boost readings to adjust for the amount of injection. I started at 50/50 but found it to be no different and have now been using 80%Pw/20%Psi. The manual for the controller recommends for PD blowers increasing the weight of the PW vs boost readings. This has helped quite a bit by itself.
I did some pulls up a hill in 3rd to see the maximum pulse width I might see under full throttle which was about 55% at redline. Using this and watching the pulse width while doing normal everyday driving Ive got a good grasp on rpm vs throttle %. I have the primary nozzle inj to start at 22% Pw and Full on at 30% this is half throttleish at 3-5k rpm which is mainly the problem area Im having during everyday driving. I also raised the boost values to 6 and 9 psi.
For now this is working out MUCH better I still am going to continue to fine tune this meth injection setup to make it a little more progressive and mainly more driveable below WOT.
~Final Thought~
In closing looking back I couldnt have adjusted this controller beyond essentially what it was setup for when I got on the dyno. On the base map I was given to break in my clutch I kept off the throttle so I didnt get to read/test the meth inj. And when I was on the dyno we wouldnt have had enough time to accurately set it up for part throttle because there are just so many different ways to adjust the inputs on the controller.
My goal is to even out the inj between 2.5-4.5k rpm part throttle mainly so it doesnt come on at all really below 50% throttle. And to make it more progressive under full throttle as well from 2.5-5k rpm so it doesnt bog the engine. After Ive got it dialed in the way I want Im going to head back for a retune eventually and see if I pick up any hp.
*** I have the safety injection module which NEEDS to be adjusted along side the meth controller. There were a few times where the safety module would kick on and cut timing to the ecu if it sensed there wasnt enough flow. I currently have it set at 100ml hr ( lowest setting which will need to be adjusted up later ) and to take sample inputs every 1 second not every .1 second I had it setup for from the start. This allows for a more progressive reading on the safety module.
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 8,044
Likes: 6
From: South Florida
Figured Id check in here gentlemen and give an update as Ive just logged over 1k miles on the setup.
The engine and supercharger are running very well and I havent had a problem with either.
I mentioned in the original post that the meth kit has room for efficiency on the delivery end of things and more specifically the progressive injection. The more I drive the car the more and more Ive noticed this.
~~~The issue~~~
When the car was tuned by Jeff we essentially did two tunes. The first without meth (362whp) the second on the meth (382whp). The car went straight to WOT power pulls on the meth there was no part throttle tuning done we were getting to the end of the tuning session and I never thought to ask about it as I didnt think the meth would spray part throttle. And there in lies the problem!
This I believe is more geared to this style of supercharger but can also be applied well to small quick spooling turbos. Although centrifugals and larger turbos in general can take info from this.
So at well say 30-50% part throttle accelerating Im seeing the meth inj come on at 100% even as low as 3.5k rpm and the wideband reading 9.0-10.0 afr I can feel the power bog in the engine while this happening obviously, until the rpms rise and or the ecu compensates. So Ive been adjusting the Stage 3 meth controller recently to try and remedy this issue. The meth controller was setup for boost readings ONLY not pulse width which it can also read. 4 psi start and 7psi all in, the mistake I see now is this is a PD style sc at 3k rpm I see 9psi part throttle!
So what Ive done is switched the controller to read both PW and boost readings to adjust for the amount of injection. I started at 50/50 but found it to be no different and have now been using 80%Pw/20%Psi. The manual for the controller recommends for PD blowers increasing the weight of the PW vs boost readings. This has helped quite a bit by itself.
I did some pulls up a hill in 3rd to see the maximum pulse width I might see under full throttle which was about 55% at redline. Using this and watching the pulse width while doing normal everyday driving Ive got a good grasp on rpm vs throttle %. I have the primary nozzle inj to start at 22% Pw and Full on at 30% this is about half throttle at 3-5k rpm which is mainly the problem area Im having during everyday driving.
For now this is working out MUCH better I still am going to continue to fine tune this meth injection setup to make it a little more progressive and mainly more driveable below WOT.
~Final Thought~
In closing looking back I couldnt have adjusted this controller beyond essentially what it was setup for when I got on the dyno. On the base map I was given to break in my clutch I kept off the throttle so I didnt get to read/test the meth inj. And when I was on the dyno we wouldnt have had enough time to accurately set it up for part throttle because there are just so many different ways to adjust the inputs on the controller.
My goal is to even out the inj between 2.5-4.5k rpm part throttle mainly so it doesnt come on at all really below 40% throttle. And to make it more progressive under full throttle as well from 2.5-5k rpm so it doesnt bog the engine. After Ive got it dialed in the way I want Im going to head back for a retune eventually and see if I pick up any hp.
*** I have the safety injection module which NEEDS to be adjusted along side the meth controller. There were a few times where the safety module would kick on and cut timing to the ecu if it sensed there wasnt enough flow. I currently have it set at 100ml hr ( lowest setting which will need to be adjusted up later ) and to take sample inputs every 1 second not every .1 second I had it setup for from the start. This allows for a more progressive reading on the safety module.
The engine and supercharger are running very well and I havent had a problem with either.
I mentioned in the original post that the meth kit has room for efficiency on the delivery end of things and more specifically the progressive injection. The more I drive the car the more and more Ive noticed this.
~~~The issue~~~
When the car was tuned by Jeff we essentially did two tunes. The first without meth (362whp) the second on the meth (382whp). The car went straight to WOT power pulls on the meth there was no part throttle tuning done we were getting to the end of the tuning session and I never thought to ask about it as I didnt think the meth would spray part throttle. And there in lies the problem!
This I believe is more geared to this style of supercharger but can also be applied well to small quick spooling turbos. Although centrifugals and larger turbos in general can take info from this.
So at well say 30-50% part throttle accelerating Im seeing the meth inj come on at 100% even as low as 3.5k rpm and the wideband reading 9.0-10.0 afr
I can feel the power bog in the engine while this happening obviously, until the rpms rise and or the ecu compensates. So Ive been adjusting the Stage 3 meth controller recently to try and remedy this issue. The meth controller was setup for boost readings ONLY not pulse width which it can also read. 4 psi start and 7psi all in, the mistake I see now is this is a PD style sc at 3k rpm I see 9psi part throttle!So what Ive done is switched the controller to read both PW and boost readings to adjust for the amount of injection. I started at 50/50 but found it to be no different and have now been using 80%Pw/20%Psi. The manual for the controller recommends for PD blowers increasing the weight of the PW vs boost readings. This has helped quite a bit by itself.
I did some pulls up a hill in 3rd to see the maximum pulse width I might see under full throttle which was about 55% at redline. Using this and watching the pulse width while doing normal everyday driving Ive got a good grasp on rpm vs throttle %. I have the primary nozzle inj to start at 22% Pw and Full on at 30% this is about half throttle at 3-5k rpm which is mainly the problem area Im having during everyday driving.
For now this is working out MUCH better I still am going to continue to fine tune this meth injection setup to make it a little more progressive and mainly more driveable below WOT.
~Final Thought~
In closing looking back I couldnt have adjusted this controller beyond essentially what it was setup for when I got on the dyno. On the base map I was given to break in my clutch I kept off the throttle so I didnt get to read/test the meth inj. And when I was on the dyno we wouldnt have had enough time to accurately set it up for part throttle because there are just so many different ways to adjust the inputs on the controller.
My goal is to even out the inj between 2.5-4.5k rpm part throttle mainly so it doesnt come on at all really below 40% throttle. And to make it more progressive under full throttle as well from 2.5-5k rpm so it doesnt bog the engine. After Ive got it dialed in the way I want Im going to head back for a retune eventually and see if I pick up any hp.
*** I have the safety injection module which NEEDS to be adjusted along side the meth controller. There were a few times where the safety module would kick on and cut timing to the ecu if it sensed there wasnt enough flow. I currently have it set at 100ml hr ( lowest setting which will need to be adjusted up later ) and to take sample inputs every 1 second not every .1 second I had it setup for from the start. This allows for a more progressive reading on the safety module.
1. Tuning fiasco
2. Crappy part throttle
3. Quicker depletion of the meth container!
4. Thing will spray a lot in part throttle. A lot!
3 was the main reason I only had mine spray at high psi and near full throttle. Anything below was a waste and any cooling it offered or increase in timing from the enriched fuel was a blip if at all. Now full throttle Temps creep up fast and we'll thats when you want that extra vavoom. I also imagine the increased timing only is in the high end of boost.
That being said tweaking the tuning to compensate for the method is a valid solution but are you recalling benefitting g from it? Yes Temps drop a bit in part throttle but did you really need it to? Causing up a hill half throttle boost smacks 9psi and you spray meth but did you have to? Was it needed. To me you just sprayed some fun juice for no reason.
Anywho just some ramblings
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,526
Likes: 4
From: PA
Well what I primarily do is backroad twisties as opposed to straight highway pulls. I live well into the Applachian Mountains in PA and there are alot of windy unpopulated or very near, roads like that around me. There are alot of instances where there are no chances to go full throttle for more then a second or two before the next turn. Having the meth come on even at part throttle will keep help the blower temps down as there are roads like that, that go on for miles here.
Im not much concerned about the amount of meth I use I wouldnt be spraying 15gph if I was haha. I get 5 gallons of VP M1 for $20 cash.
Essentially what Im trying accomplish right now is stopping the meth from coming on at less then 50% part throttle below 5k rpms. Just so when Im accelerating away from a stop sign or redlight I can sorta get on it without worrying about the meth spraying and pegging the afr at 9.0 so Im not pussy footing around all the time.
I do see what your saying tho about anything less then 90% throttle and spraying meth. One thing is this controller doesnt read the throttle position and its standalone from the aem ems. So I can use Pw or boost to control the injection. Now yeah I can raise the values to mimic trottle position. What Im doing is probably over thinking and over analyzing the meth delivery and its use but I spent $400 on this Stage 3 controller I might as well use it to its fullest
Im not much concerned about the amount of meth I use I wouldnt be spraying 15gph if I was haha. I get 5 gallons of VP M1 for $20 cash.
Essentially what Im trying accomplish right now is stopping the meth from coming on at less then 50% part throttle below 5k rpms. Just so when Im accelerating away from a stop sign or redlight I can sorta get on it without worrying about the meth spraying and pegging the afr at 9.0 so Im not pussy footing around all the time.
I do see what your saying tho about anything less then 90% throttle and spraying meth. One thing is this controller doesnt read the throttle position and its standalone from the aem ems. So I can use Pw or boost to control the injection. Now yeah I can raise the values to mimic trottle position. What Im doing is probably over thinking and over analyzing the meth delivery and its use but I spent $400 on this Stage 3 controller I might as well use it to its fullest
Community Organizer
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 31,070
Likes: 566
Sounds like your on the right track. camuman offered some good input, but ultimately you may have to find where your willing to compromise. The issue is how much boost the roots builds at such a low rpm compared to A centrifugal which you acknowledged. Some method ideas you may be willing to compromise if you haven't considered could be reducing the overall amount the injection cc is spraying throughout. You could lean out your fuel tune some in the lower rpm. Increasing your meth to water ratio will show a richer ratio on your wideband, but will be less apt to flood/wash the engine cylinders at low rmp if your injecting too much in that area because meth burns and water doesn't. But the best case would be figuring our how to alter the pulse width at lower rpm since you mentioned having an injector style PGM system? Sounds like you have a way to adjust at least for a progressive spray, so even if you cant get totally dialed in best case, you should at least be able to not flood the engine at low rpm by maybe just setting the start threshold psi higher to be near the 100% amount so its virtually not progressive anymore. Its not really a progressive boost system you have contrary to a centrifugal supercharger, so the injection can stand to be run in the same fashion. 100% on all at once or close to it. A single stage is actually what I ended up running on my centrifugal injecting everything at once set to my turn on boost pressure and worked much better then the slow laggy aem progressive controller. I couldn't tune around that worth a shit, so was quite dangerous really.
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,526
Likes: 4
From: PA
I wound up scrapping the use of the pulse width input for now. I kept all the parameters I came up with for when I go back for a retune. But having the water meth fighting the aem ems and the safety module was getting to be to much of a headache and Im not about smoke my stroker motor over some otherwise manageable everday driveability. For now I raised the boost minimum start from 4psi to 6psi and full on from 7 psi to 9psi. Im able to get on it a bit more now when leaving from a stop and part throttling.
I will probably set it up to be progressive at full throttle from 3k-5k rpm and 100% spray after that using only the pulse width input and the same for the secondary nozzle. Its to difficult to try and weigh both the pulse width and the boost at the same time on this type of blower imo. The boost coming on so high at such low rpms makes it complicated. The pw will make it easier to tune on the dyno.
Trying to manage the meth spraying at part throttle vs load etc is extremely difficult. I will take camumans advice and have it come on at very near full throttle when I get back for a retune.
I will probably set it up to be progressive at full throttle from 3k-5k rpm and 100% spray after that using only the pulse width input and the same for the secondary nozzle. Its to difficult to try and weigh both the pulse width and the boost at the same time on this type of blower imo. The boost coming on so high at such low rpms makes it complicated. The pw will make it easier to tune on the dyno.
Trying to manage the meth spraying at part throttle vs load etc is extremely difficult. I will take camumans advice and have it come on at very near full throttle when I get back for a retune.
Community Organizer
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 31,070
Likes: 566
That's probably the easiest most direct way to go about it without compromising much. Part throttle injection for the twisties isn't really needed. Just make sure your after/intercooler system is up to snuff.
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,526
Likes: 4
From: PA
Checking in again here gentlemen. My retune is scheduled for this Saturday morning. Im going to use the Pulse width % input only to control when the meth comes on and the progressive delivery and not use the boost psi input at all. Im going to be running a smaller nozzle before the blower this time around as well. Trying to avoid any spray condensing in the barrel aftercooler.
My logging results for Pw vs rpm. And how Im going to setup the nozzle injection.
25% 4k Wot 27% 1st nozzle on
30% 5k Wot 32% 1st nozzle full on
35% 6k Wot 34% 2nd nozzle on
43% 7k Wot 40% 2nd nozzle full on
50% 8k Wot
54% Redline Wot
Can anybody make any suggestions or have any advice to change these parameters?
My logging results for Pw vs rpm. And how Im going to setup the nozzle injection.
25% 4k Wot 27% 1st nozzle on
30% 5k Wot 32% 1st nozzle full on
35% 6k Wot 34% 2nd nozzle on
43% 7k Wot 40% 2nd nozzle full on
50% 8k Wot
54% Redline Wot
Can anybody make any suggestions or have any advice to change these parameters?