Science of Speed install thread
05-17-2009, 10:35 AM
#11
Hey Flite,
At 6.45psi, I assume this kit does not required larger injectors or any type of EMU?? All stock components and basic bolt on and go? Do you know if its running a bit lean on the bottom end? (typical of the CT kit after a simple bolt on and go)
At 6.45psi, I assume this kit does not required larger injectors or any type of EMU?? All stock components and basic bolt on and go? Do you know if its running a bit lean on the bottom end? (typical of the CT kit after a simple bolt on and go)
05-17-2009, 02:18 PM
#12
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Originally Posted by fishs2000,May 17 2009, 02:35 PM
Hey Flite,
At 6.45psi, I assume this kit does not required larger injectors or any type of EMU?? All stock components and basic bolt on and go? Do you know if its running a bit lean on the bottom end? (typical of the CT kit after a simple bolt on and go)
At 6.45psi, I assume this kit does not required larger injectors or any type of EMU?? All stock components and basic bolt on and go? Do you know if its running a bit lean on the bottom end? (typical of the CT kit after a simple bolt on and go)
05-18-2009, 05:45 PM
#14
Former Sponsor
hi Chris --
Very nice write up, thank you.
Your AFR curve should approximate this curve.
This is a simplified graph of an actual boost & AFR dyno plot from our kit. The kit trends to 12:5 at VTEC cross over (about 4200) then should flat line at 12.0 from 4200 to redline.
If this is not the case, you should inspect fuel pressure. Your fuel pressure should look approximately like this graph:
The system is very simple in how it operatures, so if you are having to make radical adjustments to the FPR, you should verify all is working properly and that you do not have a blockage in the rail. We've found the fuel filter in the rail to be often clogged during installations which will cut down on supply to the injectors.
Your description of the bottom end being fat while to top being tuned is counter to how the system is designed to operate (see graph above). Send me some details like your AF graph and I'll take a look (the one above is really flattened so it's not very useful).
Cheers,
-- Chris
Very nice write up, thank you.
Your AFR curve should approximate this curve.
This is a simplified graph of an actual boost & AFR dyno plot from our kit. The kit trends to 12:5 at VTEC cross over (about 4200) then should flat line at 12.0 from 4200 to redline.
If this is not the case, you should inspect fuel pressure. Your fuel pressure should look approximately like this graph:
The system is very simple in how it operatures, so if you are having to make radical adjustments to the FPR, you should verify all is working properly and that you do not have a blockage in the rail. We've found the fuel filter in the rail to be often clogged during installations which will cut down on supply to the injectors.
Your description of the bottom end being fat while to top being tuned is counter to how the system is designed to operate (see graph above). Send me some details like your AF graph and I'll take a look (the one above is really flattened so it's not very useful).
Cheers,
-- Chris
05-19-2009, 02:22 AM
#15
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I'll get him to print out an expanded A/F graph next time I'm up there if he kept the file. We did crank on the fuel pressure a bit and got it to where it is now. I also cleaned all the filters on the injectors. I wondered about this as well because I've run rising rate FPRs on other cars before, so I'm familiar with them to a point. I just sort of figured this was the nature of the beast (This is my first supercharged car).
Any ideas on where to start looking? Basically, my A/F goes from VERY fat at the bottom of the pull to around 12:1 at 4500 rpms and stay relatively flat up until the last 1000 or so RPMs where it starts to lean out a bit.
Any ideas on where to start looking? Basically, my A/F goes from VERY fat at the bottom of the pull to around 12:1 at 4500 rpms and stay relatively flat up until the last 1000 or so RPMs where it starts to lean out a bit.
06-16-2009, 12:44 PM
#17
Registered User
Originally Posted by bagherra,May 14 2009, 09:34 PM
Just adding to Flite's thread...some of this is in line with his observations.
Pre-install impressions:
1) Instructions were great. It made the install much easier especially since I'm a newbie at S2Ks.
2) The packing and labeling was top notch. A couple of my friends mentioned that the kit was very well organized.
3) The install time is pretty accurate for someone who hasn't done it before. Mine took about 14-15 hours...I also took my time.
4) Even with the instructions, having the S2K service manual will be very helpful for the install.
Post-install impressions:
1) Exactly what I was looking for. I was hoping for a bump in power along the same line as the stock power/torque curve and I got it. Feels like stock when driving, until you give it the gas.
2) With the Vtec lowered to 4400 or so and Invidia exhaust the sound is amazing top listen to. Definitely sounds better than before. I've had a lot of compliments about it.
3) Makes the S so much more enjoyable to drive.
A friend and I found a nice "trick" for removing the crank pulley. Use a combination of PB-Blaster and heat from a torch. Heat up the crank pulley bolt, but be careful to not put the flame on surrounding components...just the bolt. Heat it for about 5 minutes. Add PB-Blaster to bolt...it's going to smoke a lot. Give it a crank with the appropriate tools. It should release. We both couldn't get it even with bending the breaker bars and using a 3' pipe, but the combo of the above did the trick. It released with one good crank.
Dyno results...
2001 AP1 w/Individa exhaust+TP (all else is stock)
SoS SL SC
AC
Best run after tweaking for AFR on Dynojet
(this actually was the 10th run, car and AC were a little warm):
72.39degF, 48% Humidity
290.69 HP @ 8600rpm
182.08 TQ @ 8300rpm
Boost = 5.15
AFR = 12.23
Pre-install impressions:
1) Instructions were great. It made the install much easier especially since I'm a newbie at S2Ks.
2) The packing and labeling was top notch. A couple of my friends mentioned that the kit was very well organized.
3) The install time is pretty accurate for someone who hasn't done it before. Mine took about 14-15 hours...I also took my time.
4) Even with the instructions, having the S2K service manual will be very helpful for the install.
Post-install impressions:
1) Exactly what I was looking for. I was hoping for a bump in power along the same line as the stock power/torque curve and I got it. Feels like stock when driving, until you give it the gas.
2) With the Vtec lowered to 4400 or so and Invidia exhaust the sound is amazing top listen to. Definitely sounds better than before. I've had a lot of compliments about it.
3) Makes the S so much more enjoyable to drive.
A friend and I found a nice "trick" for removing the crank pulley. Use a combination of PB-Blaster and heat from a torch. Heat up the crank pulley bolt, but be careful to not put the flame on surrounding components...just the bolt. Heat it for about 5 minutes. Add PB-Blaster to bolt...it's going to smoke a lot. Give it a crank with the appropriate tools. It should release. We both couldn't get it even with bending the breaker bars and using a 3' pipe, but the combo of the above did the trick. It released with one good crank.
Dyno results...
2001 AP1 w/Individa exhaust+TP (all else is stock)
SoS SL SC
AC
Best run after tweaking for AFR on Dynojet
(this actually was the 10th run, car and AC were a little warm):
72.39degF, 48% Humidity
290.69 HP @ 8600rpm
182.08 TQ @ 8300rpm
Boost = 5.15
AFR = 12.23
wanted to double check this (and i know all dynos arent the same) but i thought the aftercooled version makes 6psi and ~20 more hp on average?
did you dyno before and after and find a delta?
Do you feel the invidia + test pipe helped the power at all or hurt? just curious since i have both as well
06-17-2009, 01:39 AM
#18
Originally Posted by suprmonky73,Jun 16 2009, 12:44 PM
sorry to bring this back, but you say your kit is running 5 psi with the aftercooler and makes 290hp.
wanted to double check this (and i know all dynos arent the same) but i thought the aftercooled version makes 6psi and ~20 more hp on average?
did you dyno before and after and find a delta?
Do you feel the invidia + test pipe helped the power at all or hurt? just curious since i have both as well
wanted to double check this (and i know all dynos arent the same) but i thought the aftercooled version makes 6psi and ~20 more hp on average?
did you dyno before and after and find a delta?
Do you feel the invidia + test pipe helped the power at all or hurt? just curious since i have both as well
I didn't have a baseline so I don't have a before. My car has about 78K miles on it and it pepped up considerably when I changed the spark plugs after going stage 2 (had old plugs for stage 1). That could have been a factor.
Given SCs like free flowing exhausts I would think the Invidia would help and not hurt. I'm looking into either a Js or CT header next. What's interesting is the well known Invidia drone issue has gone down considerably with Stage 2. The exhaust has a deeper sound and doesn't buzz in my ears like it did before.
At stage 2, I'm right at 340HP but that is with the belt slipping at 8K (stopped at 8psi). If it hit 10psi or so it should be around 350-360HP. The tune needs a little work also, so I should pick up some ponies there. If I hit 350-360HP I'll be happy. That would be a good result on an AP1. I need to dyno it where I dynoed stage 1 so I can get a good delta between the two.
Right now it pulls like a freight train. I used to have some tire slippage in higher gears at stage 1, but now I have to watch the throttle more...especially between shifts. I'm still on stock clutch...it appears to be holding for now. I'll be upgrading that soon.
I've been watching the meth/H2O injection threads with interest. I may go that direction at some point. Still tweaking the tuning for what I have right now.
06-17-2009, 05:23 AM
#19
Registered User
Originally Posted by bagherra,Jun 17 2009, 04:39 AM
No worries...my kit was a little over 5psi. I didn't research much into what was causing it since I went stage 2 soon after (I'm stage 2 right now). My fuel setting was a bit rich to be on the safe side. I probably could have gotten a few more ponies but the trade off could have been leaner combustion.
I didn't have a baseline so I don't have a before. My car has about 78K miles on it and it pepped up considerably when I changed the spark plugs after going stage 2 (had old plugs for stage 1). That could have been a factor.
Given SCs like free flowing exhausts I would think the Invidia would help and not hurt. I'm looking into either a Js or CT header next. What's interesting is the well known Invidia drone issue has gone down considerably with Stage 2. The exhaust has a deeper sound and doesn't buzz in my ears like it did before.
At stage 2, I'm right at 340HP but that is with the belt slipping at 8K (stopped at 8psi). If it hit 10psi or so it should be around 350-360HP. The tune needs a little work also, so I should pick up some ponies there. If I hit 350-360HP I'll be happy. That would be a good result on an AP1. I need to dyno it where I dynoed stage 1 so I can get a good delta between the two.
Right now it pulls like a freight train. I used to have some tire slippage in higher gears at stage 1, but now I have to watch the throttle more...especially between shifts. I'm still on stock clutch...it appears to be holding for now. I'll be upgrading that soon.
I've been watching the meth/H2O injection threads with interest. I may go that direction at some point. Still tweaking the tuning for what I have right now.
I didn't have a baseline so I don't have a before. My car has about 78K miles on it and it pepped up considerably when I changed the spark plugs after going stage 2 (had old plugs for stage 1). That could have been a factor.
Given SCs like free flowing exhausts I would think the Invidia would help and not hurt. I'm looking into either a Js or CT header next. What's interesting is the well known Invidia drone issue has gone down considerably with Stage 2. The exhaust has a deeper sound and doesn't buzz in my ears like it did before.
At stage 2, I'm right at 340HP but that is with the belt slipping at 8K (stopped at 8psi). If it hit 10psi or so it should be around 350-360HP. The tune needs a little work also, so I should pick up some ponies there. If I hit 350-360HP I'll be happy. That would be a good result on an AP1. I need to dyno it where I dynoed stage 1 so I can get a good delta between the two.
Right now it pulls like a freight train. I used to have some tire slippage in higher gears at stage 1, but now I have to watch the throttle more...especially between shifts. I'm still on stock clutch...it appears to be holding for now. I'll be upgrading that soon.
I've been watching the meth/H2O injection threads with interest. I may go that direction at some point. Still tweaking the tuning for what I have right now.
you arent the first to have lower than expected numbers due to conservative tuning which i approve of haha
THANK YOU GOD on the droning note.... its been starting to irk me after about 8 months with it but the stock exhaust is just too quiet for me.
What gears were you getting tire slippage in? Were you downshifting then hammering it?
Also, its good to hear your stock clutch is holding. Even with my upgraded ACT HTG clutch I was curious to hear if anyone was slipping at all or experiencing accelerated wear on it. ~80k on a stock clutch with the SC is good news!
06-17-2009, 06:10 AM
#20
Originally Posted by suprmonky73,Jun 17 2009, 05:23 AM
awesome, thanks for the awesome response!
you arent the first to have lower than expected numbers due to conservative tuning which i approve of haha
THANK YOU GOD on the droning note.... its been starting to irk me after about 8 months with it but the stock exhaust is just too quiet for me.
What gears were you getting tire slippage in? Were you downshifting then hammering it?
Also, its good to hear your stock clutch is holding. Even with my upgraded ACT HTG clutch I was curious to hear if anyone was slipping at all or experiencing accelerated wear on it. ~80k on a stock clutch with the SC is good news!
you arent the first to have lower than expected numbers due to conservative tuning which i approve of haha
THANK YOU GOD on the droning note.... its been starting to irk me after about 8 months with it but the stock exhaust is just too quiet for me.
What gears were you getting tire slippage in? Were you downshifting then hammering it?
Also, its good to hear your stock clutch is holding. Even with my upgraded ACT HTG clutch I was curious to hear if anyone was slipping at all or experiencing accelerated wear on it. ~80k on a stock clutch with the SC is good news!
The droning is still there but it's more subtle. At least to me it doesn't buzz in my ears like before. Either that or I'm going deaf.
2nd and 3rd gears for tire slippage. 1-2 and then 2-3 shifts, sometimes if I downshift from 4-3. I don't really hammer it in first. I'm sure I'd be slipping tires like crazy then and probably burn out the clutch.
Honestly...I kind of drive it like an old man except for an occasional burst here and there. That may be why the stock clutch is okay. I know what a clutch feels like when it's slipping and so far so good. I do plan on upgrading within the next few months though.
If you're looking for an easy to install bolt on to add 100 (or more on stage 2) HP to your S you won't go wrong with this kit. I like the SOT also...it seems more involved and you would be limited on peak HP (less efficiency on roots), but you get off the line TQ that would be fun around town. It's all good, just depends on what your looking for.