Sticky Update Suggestion
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2006
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From: Clifton, NJ
Originally Posted by Slows2k,Aug 14 2008, 08:37 PM
The FAQ can be easily modified.. Next step will be getting people the read it.
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,214
Likes: 32
From: Huntsville, AL
I have said it before; this or that person will be biased toward one kit or another based on personal experience and his or her recommendation may or may not be the best suited for your given power levels or desires.
I have written this to give my impressions of the kit and not bash one kit or the next.
End the end one must collect as much data as they feel is adequate; determining what is marketing hype and what is cold hard facts and in the end come to a decision that they feel comfortable with.
[B]Mods I don
I have written this to give my impressions of the kit and not bash one kit or the next.
End the end one must collect as much data as they feel is adequate; determining what is marketing hype and what is cold hard facts and in the end come to a decision that they feel comfortable with.
[B]Mods I don
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 2,160
Likes: 35
From: Decatur, GA
From the link above. This pertains to turbo kits only and is updated occasionally.
http://forums.s2kca.com/showthread.php?t=10106
http://forums.s2kca.com/showthread.php?t=10106
General Turbo FAQ and Info
The pupose of this thread is to answer some frequently asked questions about turbocharging your S2000.
What is a turbo and why do I want one?
Check out Garrett's website first.
http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbob...ch_center.html
In simple terms, a turbocharger is an exhaust driven compressor that forces more air into the motor. When you add more fuel to go with that air, your motor makes more power. Most turbo kits are capable of making more power than the SC kits.
What is the difference between a turbo and a supercharger?
Superchargers are driven by a belt from the crank. Turbos are driven by exhaust gas. Centrifugal superchargers (like the CT, Kraftwerks, SOS, Vortech) have a linear boost curve. The boost pressure increases linearly with RPM. (i.e. 1 psi @ 2k rpm, 2 psi @ 3k rpm, 4 psi @ 5k rpm, 6 psi @ 7k rpm, 8 psi @ 9k rpm). Max boost comes only at redline. The SOT roots type blower makes full boost at a very low RPM giving a superior boost curve. However, roots style blowers are not as efficient as most centrifugal superchargers. Excellent torque can be had with this setup. Turbos have better efficiency than centrifugal and roots superchargers. Their boost is not directly linked with RPM. Instead, boost is related to a combination of RPM, throttle position, and load. This can result in what's termed turbo lag (hit the gas and wait for boost). A properly sized turbo could have full boost from 4000 rpm all the way to redline.
Why wouldn't I want a turbo?
1. They're expensive.
2. They require more maintenance than a stock or a supercharged car.
3. Rattling is possible.
4. Other, expensive parts can break as a result of the turbo (clutch, transmission, differential, engine).
5. Turbos are illegal in many states.
6. Boost and modifying are addictive and you won't want to stop.
7. Police don't like fast cars.
8. If you or the person working on your car don't know what you're doing, you WILL break something.
Turbo selection:
How much power do you want?
These are rough estimates. Power potential at the wheels on pump gas or with a stock engine is less.
GT3071R up to 450
GT3076R up to 550
GT35R up to 650
GT40R up to 750
What sort of powerband do you want?
These are rough estimates. Each of these turbos is capable of full boost sooner or later depending on the rest of your setup.
GT3071R full boost before 4000 rpm
GT3076R full boost before 4500 rpm
GT35R full boost before 5000 rpm
GT40R full boost before 5500 rpm
The GT3071R is a great street turbo and will have excellent low rpm response. It is probably the perfect turbo for a stock motor and a street driven/tracked car. 400 whp on pump gas is possible. If you hate downshifting to get power, this is the turbo for you.
The GT3076R spools slightly slower than the GT3071R, but makes better power up top. It is an excellent turbo for someone looking for mid 400's on the street on pump gas. Once over 4000 rpm, it is VERY responsive.
The GT35R is a great turbo and can make over 500 whp with the right setup on pump gas. The GT35R is a large turbo and may not fit the Inline Pro or Ultimate Racing kits without extra fabrication. The Full Race and Lovefab kits will fit it without much hassle. This turbo will make significantly more power than the GT3076R at high boost and very high RPM, but in the midrange most dynos show significantly better performance from the GT3076R.
The GT4088R is an excellent turbo, but be prepared to open your wallet. Most parts will need to be custom and the amount of power it can make is much more than the differential and transmission can take. You cannot use this turbo to its full potential on low boost with a stock motor.
Borg Warner makes excellent turbos, but be aware that their flanges can be a bit different from the standard Garrett ones. Their extended tip technology means that a slightly larger non-BB turbo will spool as quickly and make as much power as a smaller Garrett GTxxxxR turbo. Their turbos are not water cooled. This can help keep coolant temps lower and removes a potential point of failure, but may raise oil temps.
How much do you have to spend?
250-350 whp : $5k
A base kit with mostly stock parts should get you here. On stock boost, many will be less than 300 whp.
350-400 whp : $10k
Consider a headgasket, EMS, and clutch.
400-500 whp : $15k
Consider a built motor.
500+ whp
Consider built everything.
Compression ratio:
Higher compression = higher horsepower per pound of boost, better off boost response, and better fuel economy. HOWEVER, there is a limit and there are some major caveats. There are now multiple stock motors which have broken 500 whp on pump gas and 600 whp on race gas (one is even over 700 whp). All of these have a few things in common: good standalone engine management tuning, an efficient turbo kit, and a large turbo (GT35R or larger). The differential, axles, and transmission can break at these power levels. One tank of bad pump gas at 20 psi will destroy the motor. When power gets this high, you're on the edge of breaking many stock parts. Know that at any time you are within 30 seconds of stupid from a $4-6k repair bill. If you drive carefully, always buy good gas, and had an excellent tuner, reliability should be good. These are generally NOT off the shelf kits with a local 'tuner'.
Headgaskets:
These are an alternative to a built motor. Cometic and Inline Pro sell/make them. They cost around $100, but the installation is not for the weak of heart. A 2mm headgasket will lower compression by 1 point. The 3mm headgasket lowers compression by 3 points. Some people have experienced leaking with these headgaskets, but others have had no troubles. Headgaskets have been successfully used to over 500 whp. Be aware that thicker headgaskets reduce quench and can have unintended consequences...
Built motors:
Earl, ERL, Full Race, Golden Eagle, and Inline Pro all do great jobs at building motors. There are a lot of excellent sleeves, pistons, and rods out there. I won't list every brand. Contact your engine builder of choice to find out what he suggests. The sky is the limit here both in terms of price and power potential. Built motors are nice because they provide an additional safety margin and can increase reliability at high boost. They allow you to achieve higher horsepower levels than would be possible on a stock motor. Strokers can improve spool up, ultimate power potential, and off boost response, but may sacrifice reliability and redline.
Log vs Tubular:
Personal experience says that the log will spool 500 rpm sooner and feel much torquier. Most log manifolds seem more sensitive to knock and result in significantly lower power after the VTEC transition. The tubular manifold will spool slightly slower, but will make a LOT more power in VTEC. A tubular manifold with a smaller turbo will have the best of both worlds- quick spool with great power everywhere. Tubular manifolds can crack and may rattle though. Most log manifolds will be more durable and less prone to rattling. Inline Pro's cast manifold and LoveFab's mini-me could be considered log manifolds, but should flow significantly better than the average log. Expect them to fall somewhere in the middle of the above power/spool characteristics.
Is rattling an issue?
Many custom kits with tubular manifolds seem to rattle. Lovefab initially had problems with rattling on their GT1 kit, but since has spent $$$$ on some new CNC machined bracing to fix it. The effort and expense that went into the bracing is second to none. The people with the worst rattling who have installed the new braces report that all rattling is now gone. The Full Race, Inline Pro, updated Lovefab GT1, Lovefab mini-me, and Ultimate Racing kits are all reported to be rattle free.
V-Band vs bolts:
V-band everything you can- especially the downpipe. Nothing is more frustrating than having a downpipe or wastegate fall off. The Tial 44mm wastegate is more expensive than the 38mm wastegate, but will never fall off due to bolts backing out. Log manifolds seem to have more trouble with bolts backing out than do tubulars. Also, stainless steel flanges seem to be worse than mild steel flanges. Once you use a V-band, you will never want to use anything else. Tial makes awesome v-band turbine housings which save weight and eliminate potential sources of failure from bolts breaking or backing out.
Tuning:
There are a few ways to tune a turbo. I'll rank them in order of increasing drivability, cost, and difficulty in tuning. I did leave a few out, these are the three most popular.
1. FMU + check valve + Walbro 255HP fuel pump. This will work for low boost setups, but can result in poor drivability and blown motors. Vortech and Comptech use this, but it works significantly better on centrifugal SC's than turbo kits.
2. E-manage Ultimate or AEM FIC + larger injectors. This is a good alternative to management, but has some limitations. I highly recommend talking with people who have the E-manage Ultimate or AEM FIC before going this route. These piggyback systems have had problems in the past.
3. AEM EMS or Hondata K-Pro + injectors. This is the best way to do it. The AEM EMS has built in anti lag, traction control, boost control, and wideband O2 control, and will work with larger saturated injectors and higher range MAP sensors. The GM 3 bar MAP sensor and GM boost control solenoid can be had for under $100. To use the stock temperature gauge, you will need an add on box from modifry. http://www.modifry.com/products/ect/ect.htm The EMS will not drive the stock temperature gauge on its own. The Hondata K-Pro costs more, but uses a modified Honda ECU.
Do you know of a good tuner or are you willing to tune it yourself?
Tuning is absolutely critical. Without a good tune, it is VERY easy to blow the motor. With a bad tuner, you'll spend lots of $$, have poor fuel economy, an unsafe motor, poor drivability, and probably make less power than you should. IMO, tuning is not difficult, but there are a lot of BAD tuners out there. I would ask around for recommendations and ask to drive some cars they've tuned. Make sure they're not WOT only cars and that they start, idle, and drive at part throttle well. If you want to tune yourself, EFI 101 and EFI advanced are great places to start. They are expensive, but are worth the $$.
http://www.efi101.com
Power loss with altitude:
The SC will still lose power with altitude. The compressor is designed to do a certain pressure ratio at a certain RPM. When the inlet pressure of the SC compressor drops, so does the outlet pressure. To discuss power loss with turbos, we need to talk about gauge pressure vs absolute pressure. You can design a turbo system that will lose virtually no power at high altitude.
Wastegates control boost pressure in relation to gauge pressure- the difference in pressure between atmospheric pressure and the pressure in the intake. When the difference in pressure between the intake manifold and atmospheric pressure exceeds a set value (based on the spring), the wastegate opens. When you have a 14.5 psi spring, it means that you will always do 14.5 psi of gauge pressure. The absolute pressure in the intake will vary from roughly 29 psi at sea level to 26.5 psi in Denver. The reduction in absolute pressure results in a noticable power loss.
Generally, boost controllers control boost based on absolute pressure, NOT gauge pressure. I like using KPA since it's an absolute measurement and 100 KPA is the pressure at sea level. At sea level, 200 KPA of pressure in the intake means 14.5 psi of boost (gauge pressure). In Denver, 200 KPA of pressure in the intake means 17 psi of boost. This sort of system will have a much less noticable loss in power as altitude increases. In general, power decreases slightly due to the increased intake air temperature. There is the possibility of overspeeding the turbo. To maintain the same absolute pressure, the pressure ratio must increase as altitude increases. As the pressure ratio increases, the speed of the shaft and wheels in the turbo must increase.
Clutches:
Clutches can cause BAD rattling severely degrade drivability. They can ruin an otherwise nice daily driver. The SPEC stage 2 seems to be capable of holding all the power you can throw at it, but rattles like crazy for everyone who has tried it. Drivability is also not the best. The clutch can be slipped without chatter, but the engagement is vague and sudden. Many have since replaced it with other brands. The SPEC problems have been reported mostly on the stage 2. The other stages could be better or worse. An ACT PP with OEM disc seems to be the most popular combo, but may not hold to a 450+ whp turbo setup. Clutch choice is critical to the success of your project. I HIGHLY recommend contacting the manufacturer, distributor, and owners of the setup you're looking at before buying. This is a complex topic and too large to go into more detail here.
Turbo Kit Manufacturers
http://www.a-spectuning.com (no longer made?)
http://www.full-race.com
http://www.inlinepro.com
http://www.greddy.com/
http://www.lovefab.com
http://www.pfabrications.com/home
http://www.ultimate-racing.com
Supercharger Kit Manufacturers
http://www.ct-engineering.com/
http://www.kraftwerksusa.com/
http://www.scienceofspeed.com/
http://www.staticxmotorsports.com/
http://www.vortechsuperchargers.com/
Tim
The pupose of this thread is to answer some frequently asked questions about turbocharging your S2000.
What is a turbo and why do I want one?
Check out Garrett's website first.
http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbob...ch_center.html
In simple terms, a turbocharger is an exhaust driven compressor that forces more air into the motor. When you add more fuel to go with that air, your motor makes more power. Most turbo kits are capable of making more power than the SC kits.
What is the difference between a turbo and a supercharger?
Superchargers are driven by a belt from the crank. Turbos are driven by exhaust gas. Centrifugal superchargers (like the CT, Kraftwerks, SOS, Vortech) have a linear boost curve. The boost pressure increases linearly with RPM. (i.e. 1 psi @ 2k rpm, 2 psi @ 3k rpm, 4 psi @ 5k rpm, 6 psi @ 7k rpm, 8 psi @ 9k rpm). Max boost comes only at redline. The SOT roots type blower makes full boost at a very low RPM giving a superior boost curve. However, roots style blowers are not as efficient as most centrifugal superchargers. Excellent torque can be had with this setup. Turbos have better efficiency than centrifugal and roots superchargers. Their boost is not directly linked with RPM. Instead, boost is related to a combination of RPM, throttle position, and load. This can result in what's termed turbo lag (hit the gas and wait for boost). A properly sized turbo could have full boost from 4000 rpm all the way to redline.
Why wouldn't I want a turbo?
1. They're expensive.
2. They require more maintenance than a stock or a supercharged car.
3. Rattling is possible.
4. Other, expensive parts can break as a result of the turbo (clutch, transmission, differential, engine).
5. Turbos are illegal in many states.
6. Boost and modifying are addictive and you won't want to stop.
7. Police don't like fast cars.
8. If you or the person working on your car don't know what you're doing, you WILL break something.
Turbo selection:
How much power do you want?
These are rough estimates. Power potential at the wheels on pump gas or with a stock engine is less.
GT3071R up to 450
GT3076R up to 550
GT35R up to 650
GT40R up to 750
What sort of powerband do you want?
These are rough estimates. Each of these turbos is capable of full boost sooner or later depending on the rest of your setup.
GT3071R full boost before 4000 rpm
GT3076R full boost before 4500 rpm
GT35R full boost before 5000 rpm
GT40R full boost before 5500 rpm
The GT3071R is a great street turbo and will have excellent low rpm response. It is probably the perfect turbo for a stock motor and a street driven/tracked car. 400 whp on pump gas is possible. If you hate downshifting to get power, this is the turbo for you.
The GT3076R spools slightly slower than the GT3071R, but makes better power up top. It is an excellent turbo for someone looking for mid 400's on the street on pump gas. Once over 4000 rpm, it is VERY responsive.
The GT35R is a great turbo and can make over 500 whp with the right setup on pump gas. The GT35R is a large turbo and may not fit the Inline Pro or Ultimate Racing kits without extra fabrication. The Full Race and Lovefab kits will fit it without much hassle. This turbo will make significantly more power than the GT3076R at high boost and very high RPM, but in the midrange most dynos show significantly better performance from the GT3076R.
The GT4088R is an excellent turbo, but be prepared to open your wallet. Most parts will need to be custom and the amount of power it can make is much more than the differential and transmission can take. You cannot use this turbo to its full potential on low boost with a stock motor.
Borg Warner makes excellent turbos, but be aware that their flanges can be a bit different from the standard Garrett ones. Their extended tip technology means that a slightly larger non-BB turbo will spool as quickly and make as much power as a smaller Garrett GTxxxxR turbo. Their turbos are not water cooled. This can help keep coolant temps lower and removes a potential point of failure, but may raise oil temps.
How much do you have to spend?
250-350 whp : $5k
A base kit with mostly stock parts should get you here. On stock boost, many will be less than 300 whp.
350-400 whp : $10k
Consider a headgasket, EMS, and clutch.
400-500 whp : $15k
Consider a built motor.
500+ whp
Consider built everything.
Compression ratio:
Higher compression = higher horsepower per pound of boost, better off boost response, and better fuel economy. HOWEVER, there is a limit and there are some major caveats. There are now multiple stock motors which have broken 500 whp on pump gas and 600 whp on race gas (one is even over 700 whp). All of these have a few things in common: good standalone engine management tuning, an efficient turbo kit, and a large turbo (GT35R or larger). The differential, axles, and transmission can break at these power levels. One tank of bad pump gas at 20 psi will destroy the motor. When power gets this high, you're on the edge of breaking many stock parts. Know that at any time you are within 30 seconds of stupid from a $4-6k repair bill. If you drive carefully, always buy good gas, and had an excellent tuner, reliability should be good. These are generally NOT off the shelf kits with a local 'tuner'.
Headgaskets:
These are an alternative to a built motor. Cometic and Inline Pro sell/make them. They cost around $100, but the installation is not for the weak of heart. A 2mm headgasket will lower compression by 1 point. The 3mm headgasket lowers compression by 3 points. Some people have experienced leaking with these headgaskets, but others have had no troubles. Headgaskets have been successfully used to over 500 whp. Be aware that thicker headgaskets reduce quench and can have unintended consequences...
Built motors:
Earl, ERL, Full Race, Golden Eagle, and Inline Pro all do great jobs at building motors. There are a lot of excellent sleeves, pistons, and rods out there. I won't list every brand. Contact your engine builder of choice to find out what he suggests. The sky is the limit here both in terms of price and power potential. Built motors are nice because they provide an additional safety margin and can increase reliability at high boost. They allow you to achieve higher horsepower levels than would be possible on a stock motor. Strokers can improve spool up, ultimate power potential, and off boost response, but may sacrifice reliability and redline.
Log vs Tubular:
Personal experience says that the log will spool 500 rpm sooner and feel much torquier. Most log manifolds seem more sensitive to knock and result in significantly lower power after the VTEC transition. The tubular manifold will spool slightly slower, but will make a LOT more power in VTEC. A tubular manifold with a smaller turbo will have the best of both worlds- quick spool with great power everywhere. Tubular manifolds can crack and may rattle though. Most log manifolds will be more durable and less prone to rattling. Inline Pro's cast manifold and LoveFab's mini-me could be considered log manifolds, but should flow significantly better than the average log. Expect them to fall somewhere in the middle of the above power/spool characteristics.
Is rattling an issue?
Many custom kits with tubular manifolds seem to rattle. Lovefab initially had problems with rattling on their GT1 kit, but since has spent $$$$ on some new CNC machined bracing to fix it. The effort and expense that went into the bracing is second to none. The people with the worst rattling who have installed the new braces report that all rattling is now gone. The Full Race, Inline Pro, updated Lovefab GT1, Lovefab mini-me, and Ultimate Racing kits are all reported to be rattle free.
V-Band vs bolts:
V-band everything you can- especially the downpipe. Nothing is more frustrating than having a downpipe or wastegate fall off. The Tial 44mm wastegate is more expensive than the 38mm wastegate, but will never fall off due to bolts backing out. Log manifolds seem to have more trouble with bolts backing out than do tubulars. Also, stainless steel flanges seem to be worse than mild steel flanges. Once you use a V-band, you will never want to use anything else. Tial makes awesome v-band turbine housings which save weight and eliminate potential sources of failure from bolts breaking or backing out.
Tuning:
There are a few ways to tune a turbo. I'll rank them in order of increasing drivability, cost, and difficulty in tuning. I did leave a few out, these are the three most popular.
1. FMU + check valve + Walbro 255HP fuel pump. This will work for low boost setups, but can result in poor drivability and blown motors. Vortech and Comptech use this, but it works significantly better on centrifugal SC's than turbo kits.
2. E-manage Ultimate or AEM FIC + larger injectors. This is a good alternative to management, but has some limitations. I highly recommend talking with people who have the E-manage Ultimate or AEM FIC before going this route. These piggyback systems have had problems in the past.
3. AEM EMS or Hondata K-Pro + injectors. This is the best way to do it. The AEM EMS has built in anti lag, traction control, boost control, and wideband O2 control, and will work with larger saturated injectors and higher range MAP sensors. The GM 3 bar MAP sensor and GM boost control solenoid can be had for under $100. To use the stock temperature gauge, you will need an add on box from modifry. http://www.modifry.com/products/ect/ect.htm The EMS will not drive the stock temperature gauge on its own. The Hondata K-Pro costs more, but uses a modified Honda ECU.
Do you know of a good tuner or are you willing to tune it yourself?
Tuning is absolutely critical. Without a good tune, it is VERY easy to blow the motor. With a bad tuner, you'll spend lots of $$, have poor fuel economy, an unsafe motor, poor drivability, and probably make less power than you should. IMO, tuning is not difficult, but there are a lot of BAD tuners out there. I would ask around for recommendations and ask to drive some cars they've tuned. Make sure they're not WOT only cars and that they start, idle, and drive at part throttle well. If you want to tune yourself, EFI 101 and EFI advanced are great places to start. They are expensive, but are worth the $$.
http://www.efi101.com
Power loss with altitude:
The SC will still lose power with altitude. The compressor is designed to do a certain pressure ratio at a certain RPM. When the inlet pressure of the SC compressor drops, so does the outlet pressure. To discuss power loss with turbos, we need to talk about gauge pressure vs absolute pressure. You can design a turbo system that will lose virtually no power at high altitude.
Wastegates control boost pressure in relation to gauge pressure- the difference in pressure between atmospheric pressure and the pressure in the intake. When the difference in pressure between the intake manifold and atmospheric pressure exceeds a set value (based on the spring), the wastegate opens. When you have a 14.5 psi spring, it means that you will always do 14.5 psi of gauge pressure. The absolute pressure in the intake will vary from roughly 29 psi at sea level to 26.5 psi in Denver. The reduction in absolute pressure results in a noticable power loss.
Generally, boost controllers control boost based on absolute pressure, NOT gauge pressure. I like using KPA since it's an absolute measurement and 100 KPA is the pressure at sea level. At sea level, 200 KPA of pressure in the intake means 14.5 psi of boost (gauge pressure). In Denver, 200 KPA of pressure in the intake means 17 psi of boost. This sort of system will have a much less noticable loss in power as altitude increases. In general, power decreases slightly due to the increased intake air temperature. There is the possibility of overspeeding the turbo. To maintain the same absolute pressure, the pressure ratio must increase as altitude increases. As the pressure ratio increases, the speed of the shaft and wheels in the turbo must increase.
Clutches:
Clutches can cause BAD rattling severely degrade drivability. They can ruin an otherwise nice daily driver. The SPEC stage 2 seems to be capable of holding all the power you can throw at it, but rattles like crazy for everyone who has tried it. Drivability is also not the best. The clutch can be slipped without chatter, but the engagement is vague and sudden. Many have since replaced it with other brands. The SPEC problems have been reported mostly on the stage 2. The other stages could be better or worse. An ACT PP with OEM disc seems to be the most popular combo, but may not hold to a 450+ whp turbo setup. Clutch choice is critical to the success of your project. I HIGHLY recommend contacting the manufacturer, distributor, and owners of the setup you're looking at before buying. This is a complex topic and too large to go into more detail here.
Turbo Kit Manufacturers
http://www.a-spectuning.com (no longer made?)
http://www.full-race.com
http://www.inlinepro.com
http://www.greddy.com/
http://www.lovefab.com
http://www.pfabrications.com/home
http://www.ultimate-racing.com
Supercharger Kit Manufacturers
http://www.ct-engineering.com/
http://www.kraftwerksusa.com/
http://www.scienceofspeed.com/
http://www.staticxmotorsports.com/
http://www.vortechsuperchargers.com/
Tim
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