Skunk2 Racing DBW Throttle Body
10-04-2011, 05:57 PM
#1
Skunk2 Racing DBW Throttle Body
Skunk2 Throttle body
First off, I would like to say that I am an independent tester. I don’t work for skunk2 racing. I’m just a guy from Arkansas, who became a beta tester for skunk2 new throttle body. I don’t know how much the final product will cost or when it will be available. Sorry.
Initial impressions:
The spring to close the throttle body is not as fast as oem. 79mm inlet. 72 mm outlet. Intake manifold is 68mm. oem inlet 68mm, outlet 65 mm. looks good, but there were some unfinished areas, sorry no pics. The hardware they gave is good. Once installed, it gives a nice clean looks without bolt heads sticking out. It does however make it a little more difficult to install. Fitment is good but the finish is ok. If you look at the throttle body closely, you can see there are no places to hook up coolant lines. You are going to need to do a coolant bypass. So people who live in -10 degrees F, do not buy this.
Stock tune:
The drive: was ok. So far not CEL :fingerscross:. But there is however hang rev. what I mean is that my car has a 8 lb flywheel but when I kick in the clutch to shift my rpms don’t drop instantly. A little annoying, makes for a jerky shift. Also, explained in other threads with skunk2 DBW throttle bodies, when coasting to a stop, the rpms don’t drop to idle but to about 1500. Then when at a complete stop and 2-3 seconds later, the rpm comes down to normal. there is some info here, different car but same concept, http://www.8thcivic.com/forums/engin...procedure.html “Removal of ECU control or coasting at speeds above 5mph induces a higher idle point that is commonly referred to as the "cruise" idle. I also call it the "mechanical" idle, because it is the idle point that results if the ECU is no longer controlling the idle point, and the point at which the throttle plate rests when the engine is off. This is also called the "default position" in the service manual.”
Performance: ehh, at most 5 whp gain (not much). There is a little umph but the rev hang kills it when I grab the next gear.
Street tune:
The drive: It should be noted that, with any of my flashpro tune there has been a high “default position” at around 1300-1500 rpm. But the rev hang is gone. Revs drop down to normal.
Performance: very nice, I didn’t pay that much form this piece since I am just a tester. But this feels pretty good. Throttle response is about the same no significant difference. But since I have the stock intake manifold and the opening is only 68mm there is a 4 mm difference. So I am kinda bottle necking it. this feels like about 7-8 but no less than 5 whp increase. But that is with a tune.
Notes: I have done a coolant bypass in the past. Buy a reducing coupler or better yet, buy a larger intake pipe. The rev hang could be due to the screw I used to block off the NO2 port. The hole is a size of M10-1.00. lowes only carried a M10-1.25 and M10-1.50. I used the M10-1.25 because I could turn it more without stripping it. I didn’t screw it on tightly. I am going to go to home depot tomorrow. The NO2 port empties behind the throttle body giving the engine more air at any giving time. I didn’t use the NO2 adapter they gave me because it was too long and it was rubbing the hood and that is without shutting it down all the way. Highly recommend a port matching with stock intake manifolds. Also, if you researched for other skunk2 DBW throttle bodies, you would see some having problems with fluctuating idle. I do not have that problem with stock or street tune. :fingerscross: and :knockonwood: I also am planning to head to the dyno sometime this week. The local one closed down for some time now and I didn’t know it. OT, I have other threads about tuning and if you were following them, sorry the dyno closed down so I couldn’t update them.
Final Impression: it is hard to say what I really think. First off, this has the possibility to make for a great performance piece. But with a stock intake manifold and limited choices of large intake pipes limits my performance gain. Second, my performance/cost is high it won’t be the same for everyone. I don’t know how much skunk2 will sell this piece for. And I know for most owners out there aren’t going to dish out large chunks of cash to get every whp. But there will be some who will. Would I recommend it? Would I buy it at full price? Well, if it cost 200 yes!! 300, sure. 400, maybe. 500, probably not. I would recommend it to people who just want a little more out of their cars and who already have all the bolt-ons. looking at my other options like science of speed. they have a max of 71.2 this is almost 10mm more. the pricing should be about the same. and if they were then, this would be the better option.
My mod list is in my signature, but that could be hard to read:
AEM V2 INTAKE
FRONT BUMPER PASSENGER DUCT CUT OUT
COOLANT BYPASS
T1R HEADER
BERK 70MM HFC
INVIDIA Q300
ACT HDSS
FINDENZA(?SPELLING COULD BE OFF?) 8LB FLYWHEEL
FLASH PRO ETUNE
I have other mods but it won’t affect whp gain/loss.
Update 10-05 9:23am: i just used a proper sized bolt to plug up the NO2 port and there is still a high "default position". i didn't do this last night when i installed it because i was trying to do a lot ob back to back runs and the motor always remained warm or hot. but i did a cold start up this morning. temperature was 56 degrees F, and the normal idle is suppose to be at 1500, the car idled about 2200-2300 rpm. the default position or when i coasted to a stop while the motor was still cold, the idle was around 2500rpms.
Update 10-06 7:18pm: ok, i just got my first two CEL after a shift in first to second at 8500 rpms. P0123 Throttle/Pedal position sensor/switch A circuit high input. and P0223 Throttle/Pedal position sensor/switch B circuit high input. the cel put the car into limp mode. i restarted the ecu and disconnected the battery. I tried to recreate the scenario but i went WOT twice and noting. i have done WOT before and not once did i get any cel. i will email TONY of Skunk2 racing and see what thinks.
Update 10-08 9:34pm: ok last night i port match the intake manifold using a dremel. yes it sounds ghetto and i assure you it was. sorry no pic and details or a DIY but it was messy. dust + wd-40= sluggy. i went from stock 68mm to 73-74mm. why didnt i stop at 72mm. i used the gasket as my template. the bore had to be slightly smaller than the gasket and larger than the TB. well i didnt drive it around last night or this morning. i just got back from driving it around and getting gas. i dont know how much it increased or if it did. logic stands to reason that it should. but all i felt was a much better throttle response. it was much much better. *emphasizing* it didnt feel like a different beast but it was much better response. and the twitchy-ness of the car is much more noticeable. *read below for more info by gernby* i might need to throttle tune. but it is definitely is twitchier.
First off, I would like to say that I am an independent tester. I don’t work for skunk2 racing. I’m just a guy from Arkansas, who became a beta tester for skunk2 new throttle body. I don’t know how much the final product will cost or when it will be available. Sorry.
Initial impressions:
The spring to close the throttle body is not as fast as oem. 79mm inlet. 72 mm outlet. Intake manifold is 68mm. oem inlet 68mm, outlet 65 mm. looks good, but there were some unfinished areas, sorry no pics. The hardware they gave is good. Once installed, it gives a nice clean looks without bolt heads sticking out. It does however make it a little more difficult to install. Fitment is good but the finish is ok. If you look at the throttle body closely, you can see there are no places to hook up coolant lines. You are going to need to do a coolant bypass. So people who live in -10 degrees F, do not buy this.
Stock tune:
The drive: was ok. So far not CEL :fingerscross:. But there is however hang rev. what I mean is that my car has a 8 lb flywheel but when I kick in the clutch to shift my rpms don’t drop instantly. A little annoying, makes for a jerky shift. Also, explained in other threads with skunk2 DBW throttle bodies, when coasting to a stop, the rpms don’t drop to idle but to about 1500. Then when at a complete stop and 2-3 seconds later, the rpm comes down to normal. there is some info here, different car but same concept, http://www.8thcivic.com/forums/engin...procedure.html “Removal of ECU control or coasting at speeds above 5mph induces a higher idle point that is commonly referred to as the "cruise" idle. I also call it the "mechanical" idle, because it is the idle point that results if the ECU is no longer controlling the idle point, and the point at which the throttle plate rests when the engine is off. This is also called the "default position" in the service manual.”
Performance: ehh, at most 5 whp gain (not much). There is a little umph but the rev hang kills it when I grab the next gear.
Street tune:
The drive: It should be noted that, with any of my flashpro tune there has been a high “default position” at around 1300-1500 rpm. But the rev hang is gone. Revs drop down to normal.
Performance: very nice, I didn’t pay that much form this piece since I am just a tester. But this feels pretty good. Throttle response is about the same no significant difference. But since I have the stock intake manifold and the opening is only 68mm there is a 4 mm difference. So I am kinda bottle necking it. this feels like about 7-8 but no less than 5 whp increase. But that is with a tune.
Notes: I have done a coolant bypass in the past. Buy a reducing coupler or better yet, buy a larger intake pipe. The rev hang could be due to the screw I used to block off the NO2 port. The hole is a size of M10-1.00. lowes only carried a M10-1.25 and M10-1.50. I used the M10-1.25 because I could turn it more without stripping it. I didn’t screw it on tightly. I am going to go to home depot tomorrow. The NO2 port empties behind the throttle body giving the engine more air at any giving time. I didn’t use the NO2 adapter they gave me because it was too long and it was rubbing the hood and that is without shutting it down all the way. Highly recommend a port matching with stock intake manifolds. Also, if you researched for other skunk2 DBW throttle bodies, you would see some having problems with fluctuating idle. I do not have that problem with stock or street tune. :fingerscross: and :knockonwood: I also am planning to head to the dyno sometime this week. The local one closed down for some time now and I didn’t know it. OT, I have other threads about tuning and if you were following them, sorry the dyno closed down so I couldn’t update them.
Final Impression: it is hard to say what I really think. First off, this has the possibility to make for a great performance piece. But with a stock intake manifold and limited choices of large intake pipes limits my performance gain. Second, my performance/cost is high it won’t be the same for everyone. I don’t know how much skunk2 will sell this piece for. And I know for most owners out there aren’t going to dish out large chunks of cash to get every whp. But there will be some who will. Would I recommend it? Would I buy it at full price? Well, if it cost 200 yes!! 300, sure. 400, maybe. 500, probably not. I would recommend it to people who just want a little more out of their cars and who already have all the bolt-ons. looking at my other options like science of speed. they have a max of 71.2 this is almost 10mm more. the pricing should be about the same. and if they were then, this would be the better option.
My mod list is in my signature, but that could be hard to read:
AEM V2 INTAKE
FRONT BUMPER PASSENGER DUCT CUT OUT
COOLANT BYPASS
T1R HEADER
BERK 70MM HFC
INVIDIA Q300
ACT HDSS
FINDENZA(?SPELLING COULD BE OFF?) 8LB FLYWHEEL
FLASH PRO ETUNE
I have other mods but it won’t affect whp gain/loss.
Update 10-05 9:23am: i just used a proper sized bolt to plug up the NO2 port and there is still a high "default position". i didn't do this last night when i installed it because i was trying to do a lot ob back to back runs and the motor always remained warm or hot. but i did a cold start up this morning. temperature was 56 degrees F, and the normal idle is suppose to be at 1500, the car idled about 2200-2300 rpm. the default position or when i coasted to a stop while the motor was still cold, the idle was around 2500rpms.
Update 10-06 7:18pm: ok, i just got my first two CEL after a shift in first to second at 8500 rpms. P0123 Throttle/Pedal position sensor/switch A circuit high input. and P0223 Throttle/Pedal position sensor/switch B circuit high input. the cel put the car into limp mode. i restarted the ecu and disconnected the battery. I tried to recreate the scenario but i went WOT twice and noting. i have done WOT before and not once did i get any cel. i will email TONY of Skunk2 racing and see what thinks.
Update 10-08 9:34pm: ok last night i port match the intake manifold using a dremel. yes it sounds ghetto and i assure you it was. sorry no pic and details or a DIY but it was messy. dust + wd-40= sluggy. i went from stock 68mm to 73-74mm. why didnt i stop at 72mm. i used the gasket as my template. the bore had to be slightly smaller than the gasket and larger than the TB. well i didnt drive it around last night or this morning. i just got back from driving it around and getting gas. i dont know how much it increased or if it did. logic stands to reason that it should. but all i felt was a much better throttle response. it was much much better. *emphasizing* it didnt feel like a different beast but it was much better response. and the twitchy-ness of the car is much more noticeable. *read below for more info by gernby* i might need to throttle tune. but it is definitely is twitchier.
10-04-2011, 05:57 PM
#2
sorry for the phone pics. believe it or not but this would be better than my actual digital camera.
this is how the package came
this is what came inside
these are just pictures of the the Skunk2 Throttle body
it does come with a TPS
now, it comes to the comparison to the oem
you can clearly see a large difference in size.
here are the number for the Skunk2
it is 80mm for the inlet
72mm for the outlet
here are the measurements for the OEM
this is the outlet and it is 65mm
the inlet is 68 mm
install is pretty straight forward. i wasn't given any instructions.
first, remove or just disconnect the intake from throttle body.
and disconnect the TPS
dont forget to remove this clip.
next, using a 12mm socket, remove the four nuts and bolts holding the throttle body to the intake manifold. 2 bolts and 2 nuts
using pliers or vice grips remove the studs from the intake manifold. turn counterclockwise. i was able to use my fingers on one of them
using a 6mm allen wrench and the hardware they supplied and the gasket, install new skunk2 throttle body.
i dont have NO2 so i plugged up the hole. the hole and thread is a M10-1.00
plug up the TPS and reset the ecu and you are good to go. also if u r too lazy to order one, or if it came unexpected. *cough* i was able to fit a silicon coupler that fitted a 2.5 intake to the oem throttle body to the 80 mm throttle body with some help from WD-40.
Edit 10-06 12:36am: i played with the lighting the picture with the measurement for the outlet of the skunk2 throttle body.
this is how the package came
this is what came inside
these are just pictures of the the Skunk2 Throttle body
it does come with a TPS
now, it comes to the comparison to the oem
you can clearly see a large difference in size.
here are the number for the Skunk2
it is 80mm for the inlet
72mm for the outlet
here are the measurements for the OEM
this is the outlet and it is 65mm
the inlet is 68 mm
install is pretty straight forward. i wasn't given any instructions.
first, remove or just disconnect the intake from throttle body.
and disconnect the TPS
dont forget to remove this clip.
next, using a 12mm socket, remove the four nuts and bolts holding the throttle body to the intake manifold. 2 bolts and 2 nuts
using pliers or vice grips remove the studs from the intake manifold. turn counterclockwise. i was able to use my fingers on one of them
using a 6mm allen wrench and the hardware they supplied and the gasket, install new skunk2 throttle body.
i dont have NO2 so i plugged up the hole. the hole and thread is a M10-1.00
plug up the TPS and reset the ecu and you are good to go. also if u r too lazy to order one, or if it came unexpected. *cough* i was able to fit a silicon coupler that fitted a 2.5 intake to the oem throttle body to the 80 mm throttle body with some help from WD-40.
Edit 10-06 12:36am: i played with the lighting the picture with the measurement for the outlet of the skunk2 throttle body.
10-05-2011, 05:34 AM
#3
Thanks for the write up. I offered to be a beta tester as well...
What makes you think the closing spring is too soft or slow? If it's because of the way it drives, that wouldn't be due to the spring. Since this TB is about 25% larger, it will provide MUCH less manifold vacuum at small throttle positions compared to stock. For example, at 10% throttle at 2K RPMs, the MAP might be 400 mBar with the stock TB, but it might be 600 mBar with the larger TB (both are educated guesses). Since I believe the stock throttle map in the S2000 is already too agressive at low RPMs, I think this larger TB will be much too agressive (touchy) unless you customize the target throttle map using a FlashPro. I recently started a thread about that very thing here, but here are a couple screen shots of the stock throttle map compared to the one I'm currently optimizing.
Stock
Custom map to give smoother response at lower RPMs (less ON / OFF).
What makes you think the closing spring is too soft or slow? If it's because of the way it drives, that wouldn't be due to the spring. Since this TB is about 25% larger, it will provide MUCH less manifold vacuum at small throttle positions compared to stock. For example, at 10% throttle at 2K RPMs, the MAP might be 400 mBar with the stock TB, but it might be 600 mBar with the larger TB (both are educated guesses). Since I believe the stock throttle map in the S2000 is already too agressive at low RPMs, I think this larger TB will be much too agressive (touchy) unless you customize the target throttle map using a FlashPro. I recently started a thread about that very thing here, but here are a couple screen shots of the stock throttle map compared to the one I'm currently optimizing.
Stock
Custom map to give smoother response at lower RPMs (less ON / OFF).
10-05-2011, 06:30 AM
#4
Thanks for the write up. I offered to be a beta tester as well...
What makes you think the closing spring is too soft or slow? If it's because of the way it drives, that wouldn't be due to the spring. Since this TB is about 25% larger, it will provide MUCH less manifold vacuum at small throttle positions compared to stock. For example, at 10% throttle at 2K RPMs, the MAP might be 400 mBar with the stock TB, but it might be 600 mBar with the larger TB (both are educated guesses). Since I believe the stock throttle map in the S2000 is already too agressive at low RPMs, I think this larger TB will be much too agressive (touchy) unless you customize the target throttle map using a FlashPro. I recently started a thread about that very thing here, but here are a couple screen shots of the stock throttle map compared to the one I'm currently optimizing.
What makes you think the closing spring is too soft or slow? If it's because of the way it drives, that wouldn't be due to the spring. Since this TB is about 25% larger, it will provide MUCH less manifold vacuum at small throttle positions compared to stock. For example, at 10% throttle at 2K RPMs, the MAP might be 400 mBar with the stock TB, but it might be 600 mBar with the larger TB (both are educated guesses). Since I believe the stock throttle map in the S2000 is already too agressive at low RPMs, I think this larger TB will be much too agressive (touchy) unless you customize the target throttle map using a FlashPro. I recently started a thread about that very thing here, but here are a couple screen shots of the stock throttle map compared to the one I'm currently optimizing.
10-05-2011, 07:11 AM
#5
I have a few questions about tbs in general...I had a skunk2 tb and manifold on my gsr before and everything matched up well, not sure about this application.
Can you provide a pic of the opening diameter on the manifold inlet (you already measured the tb backside)? Is this a good matchup or is the size way off which means the manifold needs to be bored out as well? Is the gasket the same size as stock or custom to the skunk2 tb? Does it have to be modified?
Maybe gernby can answer, with the vacuum/load characteristics being way out of whack and more sensitive vs stock. Would the load breakpoints on a stock tb tune be waaay off?
Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using Tapatalk
Can you provide a pic of the opening diameter on the manifold inlet (you already measured the tb backside)? Is this a good matchup or is the size way off which means the manifold needs to be bored out as well? Is the gasket the same size as stock or custom to the skunk2 tb? Does it have to be modified?
Maybe gernby can answer, with the vacuum/load characteristics being way out of whack and more sensitive vs stock. Would the load breakpoints on a stock tb tune be waaay off?
Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using Tapatalk
10-05-2011, 08:12 AM
#6
I have a few questions about tbs in general...I had a skunk2 tb and manifold on my gsr before and everything matched up well, not sure about this application.
Can you provide a pic of the opening diameter on the manifold inlet (you already measured the tb backside)? Is this a good matchup or is the size way off which means the manifold needs to be bored out as well? Is the gasket the same size as stock or custom to the skunk2 tb? Does it have to be modified?
Maybe gernby can answer, with the vacuum/load characteristics being way out of whack and more sensitive vs stock. Would the load breakpoints on a stock tb tune be waaay off?
Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using Tapatalk
Can you provide a pic of the opening diameter on the manifold inlet (you already measured the tb backside)? Is this a good matchup or is the size way off which means the manifold needs to be bored out as well? Is the gasket the same size as stock or custom to the skunk2 tb? Does it have to be modified?
Maybe gernby can answer, with the vacuum/load characteristics being way out of whack and more sensitive vs stock. Would the load breakpoints on a stock tb tune be waaay off?
Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using Tapatalk
10-05-2011, 08:14 AM
#7
I forgot to mention that you really should port match the intake manifold flange. If you don't port match it, the lip will cause turbulence while also reflecting a portion of the positive pressure wave that gives the "super charge" effect at the intake's resonant RPM.
The larger throttle body won't make much difference at all on the tune. If anything, it will just change the resonant hump from CAI's.
The larger throttle body won't make much difference at all on the tune. If anything, it will just change the resonant hump from CAI's.
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10-05-2011, 09:04 AM
#9
If you have a rotary tool, drill, or dremel with the right bit, you can port match it yourself in a couple hours. I could probably do mine in 30 minutes with my air-powered rotary tool. It doesn't have to be perfect.
10-05-2011, 09:06 AM
#10
BTW, you don't even have to remove the manifold. Just stuff towels into the manifold to prevent shavings from traveling into the runners, enlarge the opening, then use a shop vac to suck the shavings out before, during, and after you pull the towels out.