***Official Header Thread***
07-27-2010, 06:26 AM
#421
Budgets are important. However, every dollar spent on a bolt-on power adder is a dollar wasted if you don't have a way to tune it, IMHO. A good tune will provide significantly more bang for the buck on an NA setup than anything else you can buy. I don't understand your logic about NA setups needing to use stock tuning at all.
07-27-2010, 07:07 AM
#423
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Sorry for my miss understanding on the vafc's abiltiy to hold tune. But I heared that the tune on partial throttle will be lost, and for the track, I use wide open as well as partial throttle modulations so I can see where I may benefit from a vafc but I would rather go standalone to get the most out of my car. With standalone I'll be spending a pretty penny which I cant do right now, so it is a major plus when I invest in bolt ons that work well with the stock ecu's tune. Down the road when I go FI tuning is a must so I'll just worry about it when I do take the plunge.
BTW what numbers did the PLM header put down when you tuned it?
BTW what numbers did the PLM header put down when you tuned it?
07-27-2010, 07:22 AM
#424
VAFC's are only usefull for full throttle tuning, which is totally fine for I/H/E builds. If you want to go FI later, then a full standalone would be best. I'm not sure how much that new header cost you, but you can probably get a used AEM EMS and a decent tune for $1K. I believe your old PLM header with a decent EMS tune would kill what you have now.
I don't have access to a dyno, so all of the tuning I've done has been on the street using datalogs to generate torque curves. I don't know what peak numbers would have been on them, but the torque curves are wide and flat.
I don't have access to a dyno, so all of the tuning I've done has been on the street using datalogs to generate torque curves. I don't know what peak numbers would have been on them, but the torque curves are wide and flat.
07-27-2010, 07:31 AM
#425
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Originally Posted by MUAY_THAIerd,Jul 27 2010, 06:09 AM
No I didnt have a tune with the PLM nor FF header. The FF header is made for the stock ecu which is how i think n/a mods should be. Also i didnt want to waste money on a vafc and tune when over time the tune will be lost, nor did i want to invest in a standalone. So in the end I am happy with the FF header becasue it surpassed all of my expectations. But yes I do believe that with a tune the PLM may be better than the FF header but it wasnt in my budget.
07-27-2010, 08:36 AM
#426
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Originally Posted by gernby,Jul 27 2010, 05:56 AM
Did you have your car tuned with the PLM header, then again with the FF header? I recently tuned an S2000 with the PLM header, and it needed VTEC set at 3500 RPMs. From what I remember, the FF header doesn't really respond that much to tuning.
when we developed the header..... all of the testing was done on the stock ECU..... believe me when we where suprised that the header didn't respond well to lowering the VTEC....it can be done but the gains aren't as good as we would have liked..... On the same note we were suprised by how well the stock header performed with the ECU tuning...at least this is the case on our AP1 test car.... the FF still manages to beat it out on the top end though.
We have been running into the same issue with the 4-1 design....
We have learned alot over the course of the last year testing different designs..... I know Jeff has sunk a lot of personal time and money into trying to develop a quality header. I know we have donated a lot of dyno time in testing the header.....
As it turns out the FF header works great for those who don't have the option of EMS tuning......due to emissions or other reasons.
If someone wants.. I will glady test the PLM header for free just to satisfy the the curious ones...and I will test it the same as all the other tests we have done.
Are we done? No...we still have a few tricks up our sleeves
07-27-2010, 10:10 AM
#428
I have a lot of respect for the work that was done on the FF header, but I just think it is unfortunate that it was designed with the stock tune in mind. I've always believed strongly that a tuning solution should come before ANY bolt-on power adder.
If the S2000 was still in its infancy, and there weren't any good tuning solutions available, then that would be fine. However, we have several great tuning options, especially for the '06+ models (FlashPro). I honestly believe that EVERY bolt-on should be designed with tuning in mind.
Furthermore, I think every before / after dyno test that uses an untuned dyno for the baseline is totally irrellivant. If you are testing the effectiveness of a header (or intake, exhaust, etc.), then you should do a full tune on the car before doing the baseline dyno, then install the part, and do another full tune, then do the after dyno.
If the S2000 was still in its infancy, and there weren't any good tuning solutions available, then that would be fine. However, we have several great tuning options, especially for the '06+ models (FlashPro). I honestly believe that EVERY bolt-on should be designed with tuning in mind.
Furthermore, I think every before / after dyno test that uses an untuned dyno for the baseline is totally irrellivant. If you are testing the effectiveness of a header (or intake, exhaust, etc.), then you should do a full tune on the car before doing the baseline dyno, then install the part, and do another full tune, then do the after dyno.
07-27-2010, 12:10 PM
#429
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YOU sir just like everyone else is entitled to his or her opinion. Variety is the spice of life . If I remember correctly the baseline was in fact tuned for the testing we did except when it was a stock ecu. Either way I see your point and have since dedicated this next attempt to you, and people of that school of thought so without further delay we are starting on what will be our heavy hitter. No more foolin around.
07-27-2010, 12:38 PM
#430
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Originally Posted by gernby,Jul 27 2010, 08:56 AM
Did you have your car tuned with the PLM header, then again with the FF header? I recently tuned an S2000 with the PLM header, and it needed VTEC set at 3500 RPMs. From what I remember, the FF header doesn't really respond that much to tuning.