URGE designs Project thread
 

This is just a reset on projects that we are working on or thinking about.

To date, every product we have offered, we feel it was best in class through testing several available options or designing a new product with fewer compromises that what is available.

For example, we have tested several different dampers on our S2000 including Motons CS and hands down the best damper performance value was the DFVs. That is what we believe in and to date we have sold 41 sets of DFVs and all but 1 customer has been completely satisfied with them. The DFVs were available for 2 years before we sold them and didn’t sell very well. Due to S2KI vendor promotions, price drops and great reviews, there have been over 70 DFVs sold via S2KI vendors in the last 2 years probably making it the highest selling premium suspension.

We have gone through at several sets of wheels (Volk, Prodrive, etc) and felt there was always more left on the table from a width point of view so we went through several sets of CCW wheels to confirm the true limits of stock and modified fenders. Today we can consult and offer the maximum width wheels depending on your fender limitations or modifications.

When we weren’t satisfied with any available products, we choose to work with a vendor to manufacture a new product with fewer compromises like the Essex Brake kit, Fluidampr Crank Damper or AT Power ITBs.

Below are some projects we are working on where we feel we can provide a better option than what is available today, a new product altogether or an evolution of an existing product.

Oval ITBs

We are currently redesigning our ITBs with oval throttles. There was nothing wrong with our round throttles ITBs but our vendor has differentiated themselves on oval throttles for their off-the-shelf kits and is no longer making round throttles for custom ITBs.

Oval throttles allows us to keep the same throttle surface area while moving the throttle a little closer to the head, improving response and possibly flow. Also, oval throttles have better control, as airflow is more linear to throttle position angle.

We have delivered 2 prototype sets and we need to clean up a few interference issues. Our 3rd set with the revisions is due next month.

One thing to note is the size of the throttle is overrated, as AT Power throttles are 1-1.5” away from head. There are 2 other excellent 60-65mm ITBs available for the S2000 and both have the throttles >5.5” away from the head. Our runner diameter is 60mm at that same distance and most likely their ports have a ~50mm port diameter @ 1” from the head. So the size of the throttle really isn’t changing the size of the system.

Thus our ITBs have flow tested the same as larger throttles systems (data on our site) with a few other benefits including; our ITBs are more cost effective, offer variable length runners options for different redlines, custom color options, have better throttle modulation and faster throttle response. Overall we feel our system is more drivable with out any loss in power.

[attachment=68748:Oval vs Round Throttles.jpg]

Custom ITB Runners

Additionally, we have been testing custom runner designs that will significantly improve the torque and AFR curves and pick up 5-10+ HP above and standard ITBs. Since our ITBs are modular, all of our sets can be upgraded to the custom runners at any time. We are currently waiting on 3-D printing to lower manufacturing costs and improve under hood fitment for these custom runners.

ITB DBW Actuator Control

This is something Gernby has completed testing on for us and this would already be available if it wasn’t for the Oval ITB redesign. Gernby has been able to get the DBW actuator control to work with out throwing any codes, MAP tuned on flash pro and daily drives them.

Right now the actuator housing, bracket, gearing and drive shaft is looking like a $650 option including 1 hour of tech support from Gernby.

We will also offer a remote Flash Pro Tune through Gernby for $150.

I still think we are a few months away to get the new prototype actuator for the oval ITBs and test fit. We will be offering the prototype kit at a discount once we are satisfied with fitment.

[attachment=68749:S2000 DBW ITB acuator.jpg]

Unicorn Header

We are on our 3rd unique design hence the “Unicorn” name. We have designed and tested a 4-1 and Tri-Y. We have also tested 2 different sequentially paired headers that were available. The 4-1 simply had power gains and losses at different RPM with about the same area under the curve. The sequentially paired headers lost power compared to OEM.

Our 2nd design, the Tri-Y tested well, making power on 2 motors and breaking even on a 3rd, but the cost to sell would have been $1750 and we didn’t feel it would be worth the gains. It was a very high quality header, but we don’t think it would have benefited the community at that price.

We have a new, 3rd simpler design that should make consistent gains in theory and will retail for less than our 2nd design cost to manufacture. Prototypes should be in hand this week with dynos coming soon.

[attachment=68747:Unicorn V3.jpg]

Gernby Mid-Pipe & Exhaust

Gernby’s patented mid-pipe is as effective as it is innovative. We have discussed with Gernby to bring it back into production for the S2000 community adding dual 70mm mufflers for a complete system. We are currently working on bill of materials through the end of the year.

Camshafts (on going)

We have spent 2 years on cams so far and have had 5 different camshaft manufactures fall through for various reasons.

6th times a charm, as we have found a flexible cam designer that has designed many profiles with low valve jerk at the durations and lifts we wanted. They can provide billet cores on demand out of an alloy that is harder and stronger than 8620.

We are having some changes being applied to the first batch of cams. Once we receive back, we will resume cam-timing adjustment testing. In our opinion, camshaft gains are all about cam timing. We have dyno tested and measured many different cam profiles and timing by far has the biggest affect on gains. This will take a while to get it right so no guarantees on this.

Dry Sump (future)

One of our vendors has approached us with a design that we want to fund. It will run internally off the stock oil pump chain so no belt break or slippage concerns. Scavenge lines will be integrated into a billet pan, the oil pump will mount direct to the pan and the oil filter will be integrated into the oil pump. This significantly reduces oil lines, which reduces cost, reduces weight, reduces points of failure and simplifies the install.

It wont be cheap, but we hope it will benefit the community.

Thank you for reading. We will peak at this thread a few times a week if anyone has any questions.

Will your ITBs, cams, and headers be sold as a power pack, like the Hytech system? I'm interested in the cams and header, but not the ITBs at this time.

Btw, all this is really exciting. It's not often that an American manufacturer is making truly innovative parts for our cars, mass-producing them, keeping the costs down, and providing excellent support and R&D. I haven't purchased anything from you guys yet (Ohlins DFV will be the first thing, probably in January) but I look forward to doing business with you in the future.

Is Artin (Mr.AK on the forums) one of the people testing the oval ITBs, by any chance? I know he's purchased his AT Power ITBs through you guys, and is pretty invested in URGE. Just curious, because I'd like to see them in April at the Dragon.... :tipwink:

mass producing Gernby's exhaust...... :thumbup:

More info on this header. I've always leaned towards hytech. What is the collector diameter going to be?

Is your header being designed and/or tested to be compatible with the Gernby mid-pipe/exhaust in terms of making combined power gains?

An admittedly selfish consideration: trade in/up program for Gernzhaust owners who want the new version with better welds and fitment.

Haven't thought of a power pack, but it is a good idea. Could possibly bundle at a small discount and offer a base map. We do intend to keep everything separate so they can purchase as needed.

Mr AK has a set of the round throttles. The oval throttle was kinda of forced on us mid/late summer. We are rolling with it because there could be some advantages. Either way you have to work with your vendors to make sure there is mutual benefit.

Gernby approached us a while back and we didnt take him up on his offer. We are excited to work with him and bring what we feel is the best exhaust system back to the market.

Collector diameter is 2 & 3/8". We don't want to share too much as we think there is some secret sauce. We hope it makes power or it is strike 3 on the header.

Yes. Our 2nd header design made gains over OEM with the Gern Pipe and this design should too.

We were not involved in the first Gern pipe production so we can't really exchange anything there, but maybe we can work out a discount? Have to think about it. We are licensing Gernby's so we are taking on all costs and not Gernby.

Exciting stuff! Glad to see a company taking such interest in our cars, and the aftermarket for them.

Looking forward to the Gerby exhuast.

Subscribed!

Sad to see you parted ways with Endyn! I had a great experience having my engine built by them. Heard nothing but good things about you from Larry, Patrick. :thumbup:

Hmmm. Mine was extremely well made. ???

Admittedly, fitment always suffers in small production runs, but I think "better welds" is just a misunderstanding about what a good weld is. Most people think Chinese welds are the best ("stacked dimes").

Let me be more precise with my language: the welds on the exhaust (especially the muffler section) were not pleasing to the eye, but are likely strong enough to withstand abuse. I'm a very detail oriented person so while those welds are under the car, it still bothers me. When I think of excellent welds in terms of form and function, I think ASM, Amuse and ToxicFab (instagram.com/toxicfab). And that guy definitely isn't Chinese…

Maybe you guys(Gernby/Urge) can work on a complete single exhaust for us "single" guys. im in for one 100%.
Actually ill even help out by starting the group buy list.

:LOL: Group Buy For The Best Single Exhaust Not Yet Available :LOL:

1-NYS2000TURBO
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Free shipping for the first 3 people on the group buy!!!!

Wow that was hard work. Your welcome Urge, Gernby and the whole S2Ki planet!!

70mm Muffler good?

We can make the Mid Pipes the Same and simply make a Dual or Single Exhaust Back end using the same mufflers to keep costs inline..

:thumbup:

:cool: :thumbup:

70mm muffler sounds great as long as it works with your header,cams and itb's

I would definitely be in for a single exhaust.

2 prototypes in hand, plan to do some dyno testing vs OEM and PLM headers in the next 2 weeks.

[attachment=68865:Unicorn Header Prototypes.jpg]

so much promising stuff in the pipeline, I hope they all pan out.

Is the left hand one a 4-1 or is the picture playing with my eyes? If it picks up power over the plm I'm intrested.

Both are the same design. We passed on 4-1 as it was very peaky and overall torque was about the same as it lost as much as it gained. We worked with a great K series header manufacture and another header designer with mathematical modeling. They came up with the same parameters but what works in theory or tested well on the Kseries doesnt work on the S2000.

The new design is a simple 4-2-1 with a little secret sauce we noticed from Honda.

Looking forward to the results

So with the dbw itbs, a base map is only offered at an additional cost?

Its not really a base MAP but a full remote tune from Gernby.

Gotcha. Any eta on when everything will be available?

The Unicorn only weighs ~13 lbs. Not to bad for solid 304 SS with slip collectors.

[attachment=68997:Unicorn Weight.jpg]

Hope to get 2 dynos in the next few weeks.

Hmmm... This modified OEM header weighs about 10 lbs...

Attachment 90620

I know this isn't the FI section but would a full 3inch dual version of the Gernzhaust be possible? I love my Berk (converted to cat-back for my turbo kit) but I'd really like to go dual again.

We might be able to do one offs, but they would be ~15% more if we don't make them in bulk.

Thoughts?

I wouldn't be against that. What do you think the price would be?

We are still working with Gernby on a Bill of Materials and getting a gernpipe over to a manufacture. It will be a few weeks before we can get pricing.

I am still contemplating on using a lower cost MF metal cat or a Premium Cat with Rare Metal in it that will last longer and clean the exhaust better. The premium cat is 3X the cost of the MF.

Would love some feedback. It would probably raise the cost of the solution $250, but IMO a better longer term solution.

Sorry about that, just saw I put "would be against". Meant I wouldn't be against it costing more for a special order piece. :thumbup:

If you're interested in appeasing the FI crowd, make sure it's able to withstand heat/flow/pressure. HJS comes to mind (HJS). The manufacture process is suppose to help with blowout.

Nothing more worse then spending 1K+ and having part of it destroyed and blow out like a lot of these HFC.

If you're interested in appeasing the FI crowd, make sure it's able to withstand heat/flow/pressure. HJS comes to mind (HJS). The manufacture process is suppose to help with blowout.

Nothing more worse then spending 1K+ and having part of it destroyed and blow out like a lot of these HFC.
[/quote]

Completely agree and I have looked at HJS as they were the only premium cat around.
What about Vibrant GESI, a newer Premium Cat, slightly less expensive. http://vibrantperformance.com/catalo...1022_1063_1326

If you're interested in appeasing the FI crowd, make sure it's able to withstand heat/flow/pressure. HJS comes to mind (HJS). The manufacture process is suppose to help with blowout.

Nothing more worse then spending 1K+ and having part of it destroyed and blow out like a lot of these HFC.
[/quote]

Completely agree and I have looked at HJS as they were the only premium cat around.
What about Vibrant GESI, a newer Premium Cat, slightly less expensive. http://vibrantperformance.com/catalo...1022_1063_1326
[/quote]

Unless you can get technical details on it's core design, you're rolling the dice. They mention a 5 year warranty, but that's on the shell and tube ends, not the core.

http://www.millteksport.com/exhaust....variantid=1470 HJS motorsport cat is already offered for the s2000... fail

Huh?? :ponder:

I think they're talking about using HJS cat built within the Gernzhaust design.

Then I retract my comment. LMFAO

Header results? Back to back Dyno on stock ap2?

First tester is an ap1, waiting on them.
Also have a built motor that Should be done any day now.

Gernby will dyno on his ap2 once one of the prototypes is free and I have supercharged car lined up to.

Count me in for an SCCA Solo STR legal version. Not sure if I'd want the single or double yet, but I'm excited for this :drive:

:LOL: Group Buy For The Best Single Exhaust Not Yet Available :LOL:

1-NYS2000TURBO
2-KorinFox
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In for results :)

I'm definitely in for a STR legal exhaust. My preference would be exactly the way Gernby was making the dingle: one muffler, two tailpipes that accept factory tips.

if there was an ITB, header, exhaust, flashpro + e-tune package... awesome!

That header looks beautiful.
Can't wait for pictures of ITB's and headers.

First Set of oval ITBs should be in week after Thanksgiving..

Please don't rice out the gernby. Keep the dingle. I prefer ability to use OEM tips.

My concern about the gernby is cat replacement. I would be inclined to pop for a premium, long life cat.

My concern about the gernby is cat replacement. I would be inclined to pop for a premium, long life cat.
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I agree on the Cats. The HJS might be too expensive but the GESI might be just right.

Also, we hope to have an announcement on the Gerby Mid pipe next week.

a replaceable cat section would be nice. i think it'd be wise to choose a cat that helps keep your total production cost down though. The Gernby system is undoubtedly a great performing system, but imo, the lofty price deterred a lot of people, incl myself, from buying them. people sell used s/c and turbo kits for just a few hundred more.

no disrespect intended to Gernby. i know low volume production runs are very costly.

Have you considered doing a roller throttle body for an ITB setup? I wonder if there is already something out there that would be usable on an F20C. Something like this beauty:

http://www.vividracing.com/catalog/images/YD8070_1.jpg

:)

Not only it was low volume production but he also spent a lot of $$ on R&D. For comparison, any of the current exhausts offered by ASM for sale on gotuning.com start at $4,000.

This is my concern as well. I've already killed on Berk HFC on track. If it's going to be a pain to replace the catalyst then a high quality catalyst should be used. Assuming this exhaust is going to go for a bit more than say a Berk or Invidia(as it should), I'd estimate half the people willing to pay the premium want the performance for track or autocross competition. With that in mind I'd say building this to withstand competition abuse is a must.

Amen. I'd imagine most of us with cash in hand to buy this would want the classier part with an OEM look.

I'm also concerned about the exhaust being STR legal. With the performance delta between this and the next best performing exhaust, it's pretty safe to say that this exhaust will be the standard for STR at nationals in the next couple years just as the flashpro and emanage are now. Not only that, but every local competitor that just follows what the guys who win jackets do will have to have one as well.

Not a good comparison. The current ASM exhausts are built and designed by Saclam. And have been built in a way that they don't need any baffling material in the mufflers so they won't become louder over time. The Gernby exhaust uses a clever mid-pipe design and an off the shelf magnaflow muffler. That said it is clear Gernby put in a ton of time and effort into refining his exhaust and I am sure it works very well.

Has anyone done back to back testing with the Gernby mid-pipe/exhaust and other well known and well performing exhausts? Each tuned per exhaust? There are comparisons of the mid pipe to stock exhaust with test pipe but that isn't a very fair comparison to replacing the midpipe which is a majority of the exhaust system. I can't say any of the results I have seen posted are really any better than the popular 70mm exhausts that are available. And it also weighs quite a lot more.

Maybe not the best comparison but a couple of points. Greg's (now patented technology) exhaust design doesn't drone at all (that's not to say ASM units do). You can build it with any muffler you want. I bought the midpipe from him and added one single Vibrant muffler. It's one of the best sounding exhausts, not just to me, but to friends as well. If you opt to build a single, it is not that heavy. I think his mid-pipe portion is 14.5 lb. If my muffler goes or gets louder to the point where it bothers me, I can just have it replaced for about $200 or less with labor. I don't have time to search, but there have been reports of the old ASM 70mm that cost $2K not holding up with time either.

The welds break internally on the old ASM at the resonator. Perhaps in the muffler as well, but the resonator one is what creates all sorts of racket.

No exhaust will perform better than one with a gern-pipe (assuming NA). My system with a quiet 2.5" Dingle muffler outperforms a 3" singe (test-pipe version). Here is a good review thread from a French Gern-Pipe owner with a built F23.

With regards to the HFC, it technically is replaceable. It could be replaced either by cutting and welding a new core in the middle pipe, or the whole center pipe could be replaced. That said, I believe the HFC in the Gern-Pipe is less likely to be damaged than a conventional HFC. First of all, the location of the HFC is significantly further back in the exhaust stream, which results in much lower exhaust temps. Second, the expansion chamber with constant diameter pipe from the header collector results in a much broader / softer scavenging wave, which reduces "over-scavenging". Basically, the amount of fresh charge (fresh air and fuel) that gets pulled through the cylinders during valve overlap is reduced, so the HFC won't have nearly as much to burn off. There is more info about this in my development thread in posts 213 and 236, where I showed the EGT plots before and after the core.

Gernby, I haven't been really following your mid pipe, but how about a version without any kind of cat? Would it improve or reduce power? That, and I'm now in the market for a Titanium exhaust, and the added weight of the cat core is my main turn off from fully committing to buying one :/

i don't want to start a huge debate or tell anyone how to produce or market THEIR products. personally, i'm cost conscious, but i never have a problem paying for quality products, whether it's for auto parts or not.

when it comes to the s2k, $/hp or other functional benefit is always a major consideration for me. with NA hp so difficult to make w/the f20/22c, $/hp is THE primary factor. there are a select few that are willing to shell out $4000+ for an exhaust, but the majority aren't. the guys/people willing to spend whatever it takes to coax every last hp or shed those last few pounds are very far and few between. if it's URGE's intention to only sell to that target audience, that's their perogative.

being an innovator, like Gernby, is always tough and costly. recovering R&D is a tall task without doing larger #s. i'm really surprised someone hasn't knocked off his work already.

Metal aftermarket cats are really light and don't add much weight vs a test pipe. Much lighter than OEM cat.

Ill let Gerby speak, but the way he designed it, I don't think there are power gains with out the cat core.

If we can get 5+ commits, we might be able to pull off limited edition titanium version for the rear pipe and mufflers. The standard version wiill be Stainless.

Patrick

I don't like the sound of this already.

I just hope the license allows Gernby to license somebody else if Urge piddles around for 3 years without producing any.

I just hope the license allows Gernby to license somebody else if Urge piddles around for 3 years without producing any.
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Same here. There are a ton of us who have been waiting for over a year with cash burning a hole in our pocket for a Gernby dingle as Gernby designed it. I know everyone on here has opinions on how the exhaust should be made, but I hope Urge listens to the people who are actually going to buy this product.

Better yet, if anyone has an STR legal dingle send me a PM. I've been waiting a long time and I'm willing to pay a heavy premium to have the right part.

Any idea on price for the headers yet? Competitive with Ballade? In for dyno graph. It should be very interesting to see what a properly engineered sequential vs non sequential pairing header can do.

Has this actually been tested? Actually compared to other exhausts withs specific tunes? There is no data that I have seen to show that it has. That thread shows a car with a new mid-pipe and completely different tune on a dual exhaust that is likely still as loud as many singles. Also there is nothing about the design that seems it is any different at the actual section that would normally be replaced by a testpipe. Why not just make the mid pipe start there so people can run the OEM cat or HFC of their choice, or test-pipe rather that welding in a HFC?

Also for a catalytic convertor to actually be effective it has to reach a certain temperature does it not? Meaning further down stream it may not be reaching an effective temp?

@obd812 - The production Gern-Pipe would have probably been STR legal IF the expansion chamber had started within 6" of the OEM cat chamber. However, it's really hard to say what the verdict would be if it was officially challenged. I do believe that the one and only "STR version", which I sold to a BSP owner would be hard to challenge, since it had an expansion that started even closer than 6", and had a constant taper all the way to the catalyst core. However, the performance was exactly the same, and sound characteristics suffered significantly. Unless URGE decides to offer 2 versions of the midpipe or possibly a hybrid that makes the "production version" more likely to pass a challenge, then I don't see an STR version being profitable.

@andrewwhake - I tested hundreds of designs as well as any "off the shelf" system I could borrow (or buy cheaply), and did a custom tune for each. No system (even with a test pipe) performed as well as my mid-pipe (with HFC) and ANY muffler (excluding the 2.5" single Magnaflow which had a 1.75" inner diameter). Obviously, I didn't test every system available, but what I discovered is that it isn't physically possible for a constant diameter system to perform as well as a system with an expansion chamber! When a 4 stroke motor has agressive cam timing, like the S2000's VTEC lobes, it behaves like a 2 stroke motor! If you know anything about 2 stroke motors, you'll know that expansion chambers play a huge role in their performance and torque curve.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...e_Zweitakt.gif

@Ansat527 - I did most of my development and testing without an HFC core, and always planned to offer a non-cat version. However, I was pleasantly surprised to discover that back-to-back testing of a cat / non-cat version performed identically, but the one with the cat had significantly better sound characteristics. On top of that, the HFC actually had no down-sides at all, except for the additional material cost. It weight virtually the same as the non-cat version, since the HFC core is virtually weightless, and the outer shell is a very thin gauge.

@Trustd_1 - No exhaust modification available offers the performance benefits of my mid-pipe. I'm confident that my mid-pipe with the 2.5" Dingle muffler and OEM header would perform as well or better than any header / TP / exhaust combo available today. It's hard to beat that power / dollar ratio ...

@grubinski - I am working with URGE on several projects, and have found that he is way better at bringing things to production than I am. I think URGE will have a production system available in no time flat.

@obd812 - I personally think that the Dingle is the best muffler setup possible for the S2000, since it has such awesome sound characteristics and is light (for a dual outlet muffler). However, it has very significant manufacturing costs, and may be too "stealth" looking for many people. In the end, URGE needs to offer whatever is going to have the most profit potential.

@decepticondc5 - I know you weren't asking anything related to me, but ... there is no such thing as a "properly engineered sequential header", since they come from garbage science.

@andrewwhake #2 - If you look at the thread Tomcat referenced ("It Looks Fast Too"), you'll see that there was TONS of testing, which I believe probably exceeds the sum total of ALL tested ever done for any aftermarket exhaust system, since I really don't think there are any engineers in the aftermarket exhaust business. I think there are just a bunch of marketing professionals spitting out what they know will sell (Titanium garbage with pretty welds). If you look at the posts I referenced, you'll see that the HFC core does reach a high enough temperature to "light off". That was actually the reason why I installed the EGT's in the first place, so that I could see how long it would take for the core to ignite. Better news is that there has been at least one gern-pipe owner that has done an emissions test (in Colorado), and he passed.

Thanks for the info, and I shouldn't have said testing as I know you put a tone of testing and time into this, I should have said direct comparisons to other well known systems that are widely used with good results. Like the EVS 70 and other 70mm singles. I don't doubt that the expansion chamber is a great design and works well. I was just interested to see if it had been thoroughly tested against some of the well known systems pushed as far as they could go to really see the exact differences in performance. I think the difference in real performance is massively exaggerated looking at the actual data especially when compared to other fully tuned systems. But that is my opinion and I am glad people are getting great results with it. It would also be interesting to see how much weight plays a factor into the real world performance of the car in a straight line and on track. I wonder at what point does a heavier and better performing exhaust lose out to one that performs well but is significantly lighter? If I were you I would seriously consider putting together and thoroughly testing and optimizing a single exhaust. As it likely has the best performance and sales potential. And don't underestimate the appeal of pretty welds. You can't sell something on engineering alone, as not enough people understand it. On track testing is way more valuable than bench testing in my opinion, as tons of issues can pop up once something has really seen some abuse on track.

Thanks again for the info.

Man, anytime I read someone talking about weight savings as a significant consideration, the first thought that comes to mind is "SUCKER", and the second thought is "Great marketing to the aftermarket guys!".

The exhaust system is located in the part of the car where weight matters least! On top of that, the difference between a very heavy and very light exhaust is less than 1% of the vehicle weight!

If someone is going to argue that 1% weight savings is more important than a 5% increase in power ... that's someone that needs to be ignored. You aren't saying that, are you?

BTW, torque plots are as "real world" as it gets. I've never found anything more objective than the data I've posted. Hell, I even developed a "drone-o-meter" in order to measure drone objectively.

By real world testing I mean more along the lines of reliability and sustained performance testing. And how those power gains translate into real world performance compared to other systems. Lap times, and reliability of components, and so on. I realize that bench testing can be the most objective but sometimes something that bench tests extremely well can have other flaws that can be shown in real world testing. And the same goes for anyone making an exhaust. It is perfectly possible to make an exhaust too light and end up making it weak in some areas and have terrible reliability have we have seen.

The weight that can be saved from an exhaust can make up a significant portion of overall weight savings and it absolutely can make a difference when considered as part of a whole weight savings package. If you only do bench testing and compare percentages (not at all a reasonable comparison btw) then yeah power is definitely more beneficial. But even in that case, the difference in power to weight between increasing power by 5% compared to increasing power by 4% and losing 1% in weight and the latter wins out by a small small amount, and not only in the pwr/weight comparison. Obviously it is best to gain as much power and lose as much weight as you can, but not considering weight is absolutely a mistake.

Not here to argue numbers though. I think it is a great system that could be made even better with small changes that are definitely within reason. :thumbup:

i have little doubt that your exhaust is one of the best performing systems on the market and its power / $ stacks up quite favorably against the rest. that's what led me to look into purchasing it.

admittedly, what stood in my way of making the purchase was my comparing apples to oranges and the hp gains with your system and that of a s/c kit (at used prices). i don't think this is the appropriate place to expand on my personal thoughts, so i will just leave it at that. well, i must also say that having previously owned boosted and more powerful cars than my S have likely also skewed my logic.

Gernby/Urge, would you think it would be possible to then make the full Gernby Dingle exhaust in titanium? I'm not looking for a pretty exhaust, I'm looking for the lightest exhaust possible, with the best performance possible, and I'm pretty sure making custom tips for it is the least of the worries

Thanks for your response, Greg. When you say the performance was exactly the same, is that compared to the regular gern-pipe or stock? Was the sound worse than any of the single exhausts on the market now?