LeonV

Does a harness hold you into the seat better? Hell yeah it does! Does that increase the risk of neck injury without using the proper equipment? Hell yeah it does!

Let's not throw red herrings, we're talking about wearing a 3pt or 6pt harness on the street, given the choice. The answer is a clear and resounding yes for 3pt. Of course, there will be people who will say that it's worked for them, fortunately they haven't been involved in a crash (knock on wood). As long as the risk is understood, I couldn't care less about what people actually choose to do.

It's about being informed. Stating that 6 points are safer on the street is misinformation. My decision is to run a 3 point with airbag on the street. Feel free to make your own choice.

robrob

You need to flesh this out a little.

LeonV

I'm trying to make sure people are making an informed decision. Maybe I should've thrown some emojis in my posts because I'm saying this with a smile on my face, no need to be snippy. Hopefully those reading can make their choice from here. I'm too old for internet arguments.

robrob

Sorry about being snippy but I'm trying to understand the reasoning behind your viewpoint. Why do you say 3pt is better on the street? I haven't seen any argument that supports your "resounding yes" statement. It seems to me a 6-point harness would always be safer than a 3-point as long as you're willing to actually buckle it. A 3-point is definitely easier and more convenient but if your track oriented car has 6-point harnesses I don't see how anyone can say a 3-point is safer or better. Take a look at the in-car camera views of crashes on YouTube and think about what the occupant's body would be doing with a 3-point harness.

So if we put you in a stock S2000 and told you we were going to roll you sidways down a 300 foot hill you'd choose the stock 3-point over a 6-point? I'd cinch a 6-point down nice and tight for that ride.

Come to think of it, wasn't Dale Earnhardt killed when his harness snapped and allowed some extra movement which broke his neck? It wasn't that his 6-point was too "stiff" and secure.

Kenny_Stang

Originally there was a belief that the belt breaking led to Dale Earnhardt's death (it is believed the belt broke because it was installed incorrectly to make it more comfortable for Dale), but after being reviewed it was found that "Earnhardt's death was the result of his inadequately restrained head and neck snapping forward, independent of the broken seat belt", and that is basically the main reason a harness is unsafe on the street, and why HNR are now required when harnesses are used. Expert says belt no factor in Earnhardt's death - Baltimore Sun

In my opinion, the OEM safety system (stock belts, working airbags and seat belt tensioners) are the safest option on the street. Once you start changing that equation and adding in roll bar (and especially a roll cage), fixed back seats, aftermarket steering wheel without airbag, etc... you are really working with a compromised system, and its anyones guess what would be safer. At the end of the day, harnesses are really only supposed to work properly on a track with all the required safety equipment, which includes a helmet and HNR. Without those components, a harness can do more harm than good in certain situations.

If anyone is considering running with less safety equipment (or different in this case) than what Honda offered from the factory, take all these factors into consideration, and make the choice you feel is best for you.

V6 Donut

interesting, so I suppose those with 3 points and aftermarket steering wheels will die and those with 6 points and air bags will die also. Long live completely stock street cars.

Kenny_Stang

It really depends on the type of wreck, but yes, I believe the stock OEM system will outperform both of the above scenarios on the street.

robrob

I think it comes down to me believing the threat of neck injury with a 6-point harness without a helmet is over emphasized compared to flailing around in the cockpit in a 3-point system. Think back to the pre-HANS days. Neck injury wasn't that common given the hundreds of on-track crashes every weekend.

I'll give you that in a purely single impact head-on collision the stock system with airbag is probably superior to a 6-point (with or without a helmet with no HNR). This is what we see in all those safety videos with manikins hitting the air bag dead center. But throw in multiple, off angle frontal or side impacts and the 6-point comes out on top in my opinion.

With no airbag the 6-point would get my vote as safer even in a head on impact. If the car has a roll bar or cage then a 6-point may keep your head away from the bar and is probably safer.

I'm not trying to disparage HNR. I was an early adopter of HNR for track day use but I've seen people aggressively push the "never use a harness" thing for no apparent good reason.

Kenny_Stang

I largely agree with your assessment, there are so many variables in play its really hard to say that one or the other will be superior, hopefully this thread has provided good information so that those that are concerned can make an educated choice on the risks associated with each.

SlowTeg

Having your head avoid/not hit your rollbar is a good reason to wear a harness on the street (if the harness does in fact prevent that). For myself, *I think* the lowered seating position with the aftermarket seat reduces this risk considerably for me on the street, so I'm not worried about this with the oem 3 point. As rob pointed out, in more complicated crashes like rollovers/etc, the 6 pt might in fact be better. Something else to keep in mind is that a helmet (most at least) adds a considerable amount of weight to your head. Without a helmet on the street, a HNR may not be as critical w/ a 6 pt as compared to with a helmet.