Just for the record, I track with a modified saner as well.

 

Despite what you say, it has already been proven that a really stiff FSB works better (esp for the early model AP1) to compensate for the soft springs and body roll. Steve Wynveen's (Windscreen) late car is a prime example with a super stiff modified Gendron bar. Jason Collett won Nationals last year with this setup on a pretty slick and low grip surface. Having no wheel lift and snap oversteer is better than losing some overall grip. The overall increase in stability results in faster times and faster speeds everywhere. The only place you would want the opposite is in a low speed tight turn. Most of us break the rear traction with downshift in these instances though.

Keep in mind, many of us use tires with a ton of available front grip/initial bite that needs to be put back into balance. If your theory was universally correct, the fastest cars on a race track in the world would have really soft front suspensions. With the amount of grip we see in race cars, that just cannot happen. Now on street tires where traction is already limited, you may have a case.

 

Are you kidding with the link to a video game forum for expertise regarding dynamic suspension characteristics? Sure lets all listen to some people who have NO real racing experience - but its ok, they probably stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night...



The bottom line is that the tires have to be happy, some tires like more slip angle, some like less. Springs are on the car to keep it from riding on the ground, sway bars are there to increase roll resistance - dampers are used to control speed of load transfer. Alignment is often one of the most overlooked and important factors.

You have to keep the maximize the amount of tire that is touching the ground - in stock class racing - the big front bar is the only way to keep the outside front from decambering so much that you are killing the outside edge of the tire and loosing front grip. A big front bar increases ultimate front grip. Its the same for FWD or RWD.

On a race track the application is the balance of stiff springs and bars to keep the car off the bumpstops but still allow the tire to remain in contact with the ground under ride. Too stiff on the springs and the car will bounce off the bumps.

Hey guess what? I'm a guest - must mean I'm a moron...

 

I have a Saner bar for sale if anyone is interested.

To keep the thread flowing, I'll have to disagree with some of your comments, the ones about decambering and the front bar increasing ultimate front grip.

The sway bar is a tuning band-aid, but becuase of the autox stock class rules, we use what we can to go faster. In the case of the s2k, especially the ap1, when you get away from the grip and stagger of the stock tires, the car has an oversteer tendancy. First off, the dynamic camber of the s2k is excellent (for a stock car), unlike a lot of strut cars, and the big front bar doesn't do much for that. Second, the big front bar does not add more ultimate front grip. If it did, it would oversteer MORE, not less.

What it does is it loads the outside front tire more and much faster than the rear. The front outside tire will reach 100% of it's grip faster and with the front sway bar at a high deflection angle, it will "unload" the inside front tire, preventing it from gaining any more traction. While at the rear, the tires are still approaching optimum grip. Push the car harder, and the front outside tire will "give up" and it will understeer. You're "tuning" the amount of grip the front has to the rear. The bonus of running a big fat bar (with softish stock springs) and probably why you feel the front end "gripping" better is becuase the sway bar has the "effect" of increased spring rate. It loads the front end much faster, and the car feels more stable and planted. With the amount of transitions we do, the car flys thru transitions much quicker, but not becuase of increased grip.

We're forced to run these bars not just to make it neutral, but more so becuase of the inside rear wheelspin. If that wasn't an issue, we could run much softer bars and use the other band-aid (bling bling shocks) to balance the car better. If anything, the big front bars are adding too much understeer and we're adjusting the shocks (if we have adjustables) to bring the balance back to neutral.

 

Great post, thanks for the link...

 

[QUOTE=PilotSH,Aug 30 2008, 12:25 AM]I have a Saner bar for sale if anyone is interested.

To keep the thread flowing,

 

What setting did you use on the sway bar? Were you on the softest setting? If not I would try that before removal of the sway bar. Or, you could add to front grip by getting a wider front wheel/tire. But, if you tried it on the softest setting and you want to stick with those sizes then you probably would want to got back to the stock sway bar.

 

Yes, I run it on the softest setting. I thought about up sizing the front tires and maybe I should just do that and leave the saner bar on.

 

The only thing I have done to my car is the Saner Bar (He is local for me so it was a no brainer) and the car feels amazing at Homestead and at the local Auto-X. I have a stock alignment and I have no issues with under steer. I say look else where to figure out your handling issue.

 

In my previous posts, I think I may have mis-stated the performance of the Saner FSB. (I love the bar)

I only have an issue with understeer in long sweeping corners, in this case the car will push rather than get loose. (Much safer, I just don't know if it is the fastest setup for the track.)

For autocross you can't beat the bang for the buck of the Saner bar!