Hi,

E34M5 pointed me to this forum so I thought I'd drop by and say hi. This is the driver of the 330iA with more track time than brains. I did my first event at the end of October 2000 and have about 55 track days now. The only mods so far are A032Rs on SSR Comps and PF-97 brakes pads in front. After 44,000 miles, the car's on all of the original suspension parts at factory alignment settings. The shocks are just about shot and the lack of camber up front is chewing through tires like crazy. Unfortunately, the front camber is not adjustable without camber plates. So...a Dinan Stage 3 suspension is going in this Sunday.

Nah...the rain had stopped and the track had begun to dry out in the last session. I ran an "unofficial" 2:40 and an official 2:45 under the same conditions. The 2:40 was unofficial as it was timed by camera from mid-lap to mid-lap. Didn't get a clear start-to-start lap in during the session.

My best effort on Saturday was a 2:18.043 on A032Rs. I'm working on getting to a Hayashi-like 2:12 by the time OTC rolls around. I figure a good suspension will give 2 to 3 seconds at Buttonwillow, and the rest of the time will come from a new differential (hope to get my car from a blazing 0-to-60 in 7.0s [it's an automatic] to 0-to-60 in 6.5s or so) and divine intervention.

I'll be back at Buttonwillow on Feb. 10 (Sunday only) with Greenflag with a brand new suspension. Hope to see some S2000s there!

 

Hey Doug,
Looks like you really drove the 'pants' of the S2000 as it seems that the next fastst S2000 was 2secs off your time. Concidering that you have a lot of race experience and in a fair few cars, could you post some of your thoughs about how you manage to drive the S2000 so fast? Was it 'you' or the car ... or something in between?

I (and I'm sure many others) would love to hear some analisys of S2000's handling (from you) and how to get the best out of it. Also, I'm wondering what you have done to your S2000 (ie. what is non standard/different) and what allignment settings are you running? Not only that but I'ld love to hear "why" you did that. Could you possibly start a new thread on this as I 'm sure it would be of interest to most people here (and in particular to me :-).

ps. Buttonwillow looks like a very nice track ... what are the run-off areas like?

 

Like I tell my mechanic, it's never the car when the laptimes are fast. It's the driver that makes the car fast. And when the laptimes are slow, it's the damn car that is slowing the driver down!

My car has the following on it:
1. Comptech adjustable bar.
2. Porterfield R4 pads front and back, ATE Super Blue brake fluid
3. Front brake ducting via Porterfield tubes that are stuck in the front grill, a circular hole cut into the plastic behind it, and then cut into the back dust shield of the front brakes. Larry at NSX Modified (714-842-9135) came up with the same type of solution as the King car. I was arguing with Larry, saying that he should take the dust shield off to get more air to circulate around the rotor, but I guess I was wrong there.
4. Rollbar (probably not SCCA approved, but it makes me feel safer).
5. Hoosiers, 225 in front, 245 in back, on stock rims.
6. I had alignment set right before this event to -1.5 front, and -2.5 rear, as per the excellent posting somewhere else on this board.

To be fair, Keeney had a bunch of excuses that he could of used, that I would have used, as I have a million excuses if someone beats me at the track...... He had used tires front and back, I had new Hoosiers on the rear, used Hoosiers on the front, and I think he had some other stuff that could of been wrong with his front end. I think he busted something when he was at Laguna.

Unlike other tracks, at Buttonwillow you can use the Berms/Curbing to your advantage. Going through the chicane, for example, it seems like the fastest way through there is to put half your tire on half the curbing, so you sorta bounce a bit, but you can also keep the wheel straighter so you can keep the pedal down more. Just make sure you exaggerate your late apex on many parts of the track, like out of the Chicane, etc.

There are also a lot of places where if you take a late apex, and slowly turn the wheel in, you don't have to brake, you can be at full throttle, like the right/left hander going into the Bus Stop, and the left hander coming out of Riverside and going into the Lost Hills. There is only one trick to going fast: Figuring out how you keep your foot down on the gas longer than the other guy without spinning out, (modulating the throttle with a very slight lift to bring it back if you feel a spin coming on) , using a combination of braking and turn in/turn out points!

As for how my car feels, it feels good with the Hoosiers. The stock shocks worked real good through the chicane areas. I think I have problems in the high speed sweeper turns, as I think I need new shocks/springs so the car doesn't roll as much, as I feel I could have gone faster through Riverside, but I'll wait until Keeney/Aaron kick my ass before I have to find some cash to upgrade.

I haven't experience the much discussed "snap oversteer" yet. But it could be that maybe I feel it coming, and just unconsciously do a quick correction with the wheel and lift before it completely goes. I did feel the rear start to slide a couple of times coming out of the Riverside sweeper.

The brakes on this car are amazing. I never have problems with the brakes with the R4 pads and the ducts, and I have a real bad habit of waiting until the very last second to slam on the brakes, instead of braking soon to be smoother going into the turns. I blew through the rear rotors with the R4 pads in four events, so maybe I need softer rear pads to work with the front R4 pads.

I also make sure that I get a good heel and toe downshift while slamming on the brakes, which helps a lot in slowing the car down. If I miss a downshift, I will probably go flying off the track, as I need the downshift to help slow the car down, as I probably brake later than I should. If you want to be fast at the track, always heel and toe on the street, it is good practice, and makes the car more fun to drive. Just be in 3rd gear going to a stop light, press on the brake with the ball of your foot, clutch, put shifter in 2nd, blip throttle with your right foot to try to match revs, let clutch out smoothly so the car doesn't jerk, repeat for downshift to 1st gear. If the car doesn't jerk, you did it right. If the car jerks, you need to practice.

Everyone drives different. Some people are fast because they are real smooth, other people are fast because they throw the car into turns for speed. The best passenger ride I ever got was with Rupert, the guy who owns the Pahrump track by Vegas. He drives those Z06's with "controlled chaos", keeping his foot ON the gas as much and as early as humanly possible and counter steering so the car doesn't break loose and spin out, making sure he slams on the brakes grabs a downshift to help slow the car down and get it turned so he can wheel spin out of the next turn. Very impressive.

In the summertime, Buttonwillow has lots of run off, and only one turn that you could hit something. It is probably the best road racing track around to find out the limits of your car in turns without breaking something.

-Doug

p.s. Oh, yeah, I guess I forgot to mention that I have about 500+ laps of experience going clockwise around Buttonwillow, and 500+ counterclockwise. I guess that could have helped a bit also with my lap times.....

p.p.s. My msn account is still a disaster, I am getting about 50% of my emails....I think...

 

Thanks Doug lots of of info there.
Sounds pretty simple - brake as late (and as little) as possible for the corner and then get on power as soon as possible. Though, thare's that "small' issue of getting through the corner that has got most people stumpped :-) I'm wondering if you try to drive the car though the corner:
a) on neutral throttle
b) on early power to induce understeer though the corner
c) Take it extra tight (maybe a bit slower) though the turn in order to get on power right on the apex in order to 'throttle steer' the car out of the turn

Do you try to stick by anything like this or do you take it a 'corner at the time' (ie. different thing in a different corner)?

Also why do you have the 'Comptech adjustable bar'? I'm wondering why you got it in the 1st place and what do you feel it doing to the car?

Lats of all, how much do you think the 225/245 Hoosies are worth around a track like Buttonwillow?

ps. What speeds are you doing in the S2000 through the fastsest corner at Buttonwillow?

 

Before I start, let me say you guys are making me seem a lot faster and have more expertise than I really have, but my ego will revel in it until someone kicks my ass in the S2000 Challenge.

In general, late braking usually isn't the fastest way through the corner. Slow in, fast out is the general rule, people will also say there is a fine line between getting the mystical "four wheel drift" and "sliding the car, thus slowing you down". But I have bad habits that I can't seem to break.

As for going through a turn, it is probably different for different turns. Some turns you can be full throttle all the way into and out of a turn, other people may not see it that way and they lift (or worse brake), and thus you are faster than them on that part of the track. Other turns are tighter, you might have to be even throttle so you don't spin or screw up the exit. In general, early power to get understeer probably the wrong way through a turn. Probably the rule of thumb is whichever line/throttle/turn in point gives you the max speed at the end of the straight out of the turn in question is the best way through the turn. (unless of course there is another turn right after the turn in question, then figure out best way through the next turn to get top straightaway speed)

Quote:

Also why do you have the 'Comptech adjustable bar'? I'm wondering why you got it in the 1st place and what do you feel it doing to the car?

I am not a suspension guru. But the car at Willow Springs (big track) didn't feel like it was sticking as well as it should be. I like the word "Adjustable". I think the bar was originally made for the autocross guys so they could adapt to different surfaces, help with cars that have been lowered, etc. Suspension tuning is a black art, and quite frankly, I am trying to learn more about it. Part of the problem is that the only way to tell if something is really working, you have to run your car "unmodified" on the same track, and then immediately swap out the stock part for other parts, and then see if your laptimes are better and if the car feels better. Most people don't have that luxury of switching swaybars, shocks, springs, etc all in the same track event. The car felt much better with the Comptech bar at Buttonwillow as opposed to the stock bar at Willow. It is not an apples to apples comparison, however, since it was different tracks on different days.

I have bought a lot of Comptech parts for my NSX, and have been happy with them. They aren't the cheapest price around, but their quality seems high. They have good technical support. I can always get someone on the phone to talk to about go-fast parts. Their main business is probably IRL/Indy motors and support. Which means they have lots of expensive engineering talent on board.

Quote:

Lats of all, how much do you think the 225/245 Hoosies are worth around a track like Buttonwillow?

Again, really hard to say for sure unless you switched tires at the track, and had run hot laps both times with both tires on the same day. My guesstimate would be Hoosiers are 2-4 seconds faster than regular street tires. But again, it is just a guess, also depends on your driving style, how hard you push the car. The tough thing about tracking your car is you want to be scientific and measure stuff, but so many things are subjective and change. Weather, track temperature, how much tread is left on your tires, tire temps, tire pressures, alignment settings.....there are so many things that can make you slower or faster, and in any one session, you may make one change, but the environment around it changed three other things.

Quote:

ps. What speeds are you doing in the S2000 through the fastsest corner at Buttonwillow?

Not sure, as through the faster corners you are probably going 95-100+ mph, and taking your eye off where you want the car to go for your turn-in/turn-out point to look at the speedo can cause you to miss it, and going flying off the track.

-Doug

 

" Doug Hayashi
1st Gear"



"My car has the following on it:
1. Comptech adjustable bar.
2. Porterfield R4 pads front and back, ATE Super Blue brake fluid 3. Front brake ducting via Porterfield tubes that are stuck in the front grill, circular hole cut into the plastic behind it, and then cut into the back dust shield of the front brakes. Larry at NSX Modified (714-842-9135) came up with the same type of solution as the King car. I was arguing with Larry, saying that he should take the dust shield off to get more air to circulate around the rotor, but I guess I was wrong there.
4. Rollbar (probably not SCCA approved, but it makes me feel safer).
5. Hoosiers, 225 in front, 245 in back, on stock rims.
6. I had alignment set right before this event to -1.5 front, and -2.5 rear, as per the
excellent posting somewhere else on this board. "

I am very imprested with Doug's driving ability . This guy knows how to drive a S-2000 .I wish we would have checked his brakes . In the above list you state that you were thinking about removing dust shield but decided not to . But you don't explain difference with the shield on and the shield off . What temperatures are you running and what might you be running if you removed them. By the fact that you are running Hoosiers track tires and I guess that they are full slicks , the balance of your car has definitely shifted forward under braking .



"The brakes on this car are amazing. I never have problems with the brakes with the R4 pads and the ducts, and I have a real bad habit of waiting until the very last second to slam on the brakes, instead of braking soon to be smoother going into the turns. I blew through the rear rotors with the R4 pads in four events, so maybe I need softer rear pads to work with the front R4 pads. I also make sure that I get a good heel and toe downshift while slamming on the brakes, which helps a lot in slowing the car down."

I am interest how down shifting under braking will help car stop faster . Deceleration is based on weight transfer and friction between tire and the track . I am also interested in the "blowing through set of rear rotors in four track events" , I don't think this is no problems.

I am going to take a wild stab at things that are happening with your car and brakes . You have upgraded fluid to handle the heat that you are producing . You are running a pad that can handle the heat that you are producing . Are you able to handle that heat? Who knows . What temperature are the front rotors running ? When the front brakes start to become overloaded , guess what set goes next ? Guess which rotors are not ventilated and are great heat sinks ? If you test your front rotors and find them to be running in the 600 to 900 degree range , the problem may be the dragging of the rear calipers with the high friction pads . ( death to rotors ) Plus this will increase the rear rotor temperature , this increase in temperature will make the rear brakes less effective . This will put more effort on the front brakes ( up those temperature go) The way the car is set up you should be able to pull 1.1 to 1.3 G's under deceleration . This will move the weight transfer forward in your car making the braking effort greater in the front ( this statement is comparing your car to a stock S-2000 on street tires). This should reduce the braking effort in the rear . Reducing the heat produced in the rear rotors .

Every one talks about how great the S-2000 brakes are . It is the balance of the car , weight transfer and great tires that give you that feeling ,not the components that are used. Honda and Nissin did a excellent job of sizing , caliper pistons and rotor sizes to match the available grip that the car could provide . So far I have been impressed with what we can do to the car and still not upset the braking balance , to the point that you can't drive this car fast. Doug has done many things to upset this balance ,and he is still very capable of kicking some major butt!!!!!

At this time I can not say for sure if removing the shield or not will improve performance of his braking system. I would have loved to tested Doug's car to try to get this information . josh3io was running a 2:18 when we did the testing on his car . Both cars running faster than most of us can drive . I large portion of the heat rejection from a hot rotor is by radiation (50% on a one piece street rotor) not convection . Keeping the dust shield close to the inside surface , greatly reduces the ability of the rotor to accomplish that task . On Doug's car removing the dust shield on one side , keeping air going to center of rotor and test rotor temperatures would supply that information . At the same time you will know how much braking is being done front to rear . Another item that you should look at is getting some cooling air headed in the direction of the cast iron caliper to keep it cool .

Waiting longer to apply brakes will not increase rotor temperature . Braking converts the cars moving energy to heat through the friction of the brake pads against rotor surface .
Going 120 to 60 produces "x" amount of heat
Going from 120 to 70 produces less heat .
If Doug is going into the corners faster he is not producing as much heat as a driver that slows his car more . I am guessing that the greatest amount of heat , is produce at the end of the longest straight going into the slowest corner . ( or where you take the car from one speed to another in the shortest distance with the greatest speed difference).
I am sorry for the long post but many people read these . I hope that the information that we post can be a benefit to all the owners that read them . Trying to figure out what happens and why helps other people solve their problems.

brad

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by dwb1
[B]"

 

Thanks again Doug,
The reason I was asking about the "highest speed corner" at Buttonwillow is because the S2000 (as well as any other car) feels totally different in a 40mph or 100mph corner (knowing what gears/revs you were in is plenty). 100mph corner is what I'd definatelly concider as a 'fast corner' - certainly the type of corner I'm most afraid of. I find it hard to know what the car will do in a corner at those speeds as it's hard to 'experiment'.

Also, I'm going to bug you a bit more about the Comtech swaybar - do you feel it doing anything? Or were you just generally happy with the car here and cannot isolate the swaybar?

ps. About braking as well as engine braking at the same time. What Doug sais makes sence - engine braking in a RWD car will transfer a bit of the weight to the back and hence brake with the rear tyres a tad more then you would with just the brakes. As it is, it's the front brakes/tyres that are doing most of the braking when using 'brakes only'. Road cars are dialed in with a forward brake-bias as the last thing you want happening in a road-car is rear-wheel-lockup so they make sure that the balance is front-biased. Engine braking utilizes the rear wheels foir a bit more braking.

 

I would tell the mechanic that if the duct cooling worked that great, you would be cooling the rotor unevenly . The air from your duct would enter the center of the rotor ,cooling both inside surfaces and all this other cooling air would only be cooing the inside surface . This would create uneven cooling of rotor surfaces . ( I do not think this is happening)
Comparing the NSX to a S-2000 , is a totally different beast . The NSX has more power and it can reach a higher terminal velocity .
You talk about your car not having any fade . ( brake fade or overloading of the brakes comes in different degrees ) As this overloading accrues, the bias ( front to rear amount of braking is changing , to what degree depends on the amount of reduction in the front brakes ability's) is changing. This does not mean that your rotors can reject all the heat that you are producing . As you overwork the front brakes , you will transfer the extra work to the rears .
I can understand why you would heel-toe to keep car in RPM range , and if you don't need a large change in speed use to decelerate car . But I still can not see this improving braking under maximum conditions . ( this is where the heat is produced) .

Adding larger calipers is not going to increase the braking ability or reduce the heat generated under braking . Drilling holes in your rotors will add to the heat, not reduce temperatures .
Adding calipers that have larger pads will reduce the temperature of the brake pad itself and give you longer pad wear , but that is it. Increasing rotor mass and giving more fin area to inside of the rotor , would improve the rotors ability , but adding weight to the front wheels will reduce the performance of the car .

The goal to better brakes is reduce the total package weight , increase the ability of rotor to reject this heat , reduce the weight of caliper , improve the calipers ability to apply force to rotor and allow caliper to back away from rotor when not in use , to reduce drag on rotor ( more heat).

The ultimate caliper is going to have zero flex at high pressures ( this allows all of the pressure that your foot applies to the petal to go directly into clamping down on rotor . This will give the drive better control over the brakes ability's . The stiffer caliper requires less movement of pistons , to clamp rotor . Because of the improved stiffness, you don't have to move pistons very far back,so they don't drag .

When selecting caliper and pad sizes , you want to select the smallest pad that will allow you to finish the race you are entering . ( this reduces unsprung weight , very helpful in sprint type racing )

Every one talks about ventilating the rear rotor . I have not found a car yet, that has the brakes working correctly, that has a problem in 10 laps , with rear rotor temperatures . I have seen posts with people driving on the street with high friction pads eating their rear rotors ( might be drag issue?) The rear rotor seems to be a heat sink . longer track times 20 laps might prove this out . But if your front brakes are not up to 100% you will start to overload the rears . Is this the rear brakes fault ? Not having the front brakes up to 100% is something that I don't think many people could detect . Checking the rotor temperature will give you that information .

The comment on ball joint problems , cars that are running with rotor temperatures in the 600 to 900 range we have not found this to be a problem . If some one really thought this to be a problem put a small aluminum shield in front of this part.

Doug you defiantly have the driving skills . Improving you braking ability might move you faster around the track, then you think .


brad

 

Oh, I see what you mean. Faster "sweeper corner" is probably about 95-100(sort of a constant radius turn that you think you are going to spin off on, I think it was 4th gear, and the turn after that I might have been going 100-105, which was one of the turns where you try to keep your foot all the way on the gas. Car felt like springs/shocks could be stiffer in the sweeper corner, but wasn't too bad through the next one.

Quote:

Also, I'm going to bug you a bit more about the Comtech swaybar - do you feel it doing anything? Or were you just generally happy with the car here and cannot isolate the swaybar?

Hard to say. I think it is helping me, but I did not have a chance to go on this track without the Comptech bar, so I can't make an A/B comparison. You probably have to ask the cone-dodgers, I mean autocross guys here, as those guys are the gurus for suspension setup in turns.