Which tells me that probably what you thought was scary/stupid close to him was actually a little too far back. Couple that with an unaware/ego-driven driver, and you have a rationalization for the other guy not to let you past.

However, it pays to remember the following rule: if you look in your mirrors and there is car there that wasn't there before -- he's faster than you. WAY too many novice drivers don't understand (or don't want to understand) that rule.

 

This is a good question, one that hasn't been sorted out as best I can tell. Let's assume the Lambo spins in front of me, or gets a flat, or there's a pile-up in a turn, other such rare event that it is not obvious driver mistake. I t-bone the dude, and there's a $200k pile of crumpled Italian metal on my front bumper (or worst-case, decide what happens if there is an injury). Am I going to apologize and cut a $200k check? I don't think so. If I call my insurance company and file an accident claim, they'll probably look at it from a street perspective to determine fault - where's the police report, what was the speed limit, what traffic violations occurred, etc. My answers would seem comical to them. They're not going to politely fork over $200k (or any amount of money). They _might_ cover the damage to my car, but even then they might look at the situation and say the Lambo was at fault and tell me to claim it from his insurance. Yeah right. So the Lambo driver sues me and my insurance company? It is a grey area, one I don't like. In fact, this potential liability is causing me to give serious consideration to skip HPDE w/ street cars and move to a dedicated track-car, maybe spec-Miata. Liability rules are actually better defined in competition, it is fully understood that you are self-insured. Fact is, almost everybody in HPDE with street cars, some of which are very expensive, are betting heavily that the insurance companies will sort it all out and pay, when the odds are they won't. No reasonable person would drive for half a block on the street without solid insurance coverage for liability, under/non-insured motorist, collision, etc. But somehow it's OK to have questionable coverage while driving near the limit surrounded by very expensive hardware and bigger egos than you'll ever find on the street? I wish there was a clear answer, or that an insurance company would offer a reasonable HPDE rider.

At my last HPDE, a GT3 almost lost it right in front of me. Had he done so, it is unlikely he would have hit me, but it was possible. I thought about the potential outcomes, and came to the conclusion that it is just a matter of time before the ultra-rare ultra-expensive HPDE disaster occurs that will settle this question. Or somebody is going to get killed and the whole HPDE concept will come to stop.

 

No, it's written. Surely they made both of you sign a waiver of liability to participate. Read it for your answer.

They usually say essentially "I know what I'm getting into, and I will not hold anyone even remotely connected with the event responsible for anything."

 

Actually, it is pretty well sorted out. You are responsible for what you take out on the track.

 

I understand that, but what does not seem clear is the liability of my or others insurance company. No waiver will prevent me or my insurance company from being sued. As in the previous example in this thread, the Integra caused the NSX to hit the wall. The NSX driver says the Integra was at fault and the driver should have paid or at least apologized. But really, according to the waiver, the Integra had no responsibility to pay for anything. I'm no attorney, but it sounds like a recipe for a lawsuit to me, especially of it happens to be $300k instead of $60k.

 

As still a Novice driver in HPDE, I agree with the above advice, and again speak out to all those reading...in HPDE the corners are probably not the best places to be working on Wheel to Wheel passes with other drivers...especially if they are not signaling you to pass, and the two of you are not in pre-agreement on agressive passing at the corners. I had someone running with us at RA several weeks ago, and while his skill was certainly higher, his judgement was certainly lacking when closing on a car cornering and deciding to go deep and take the inside! Imagine my surprise as I had to put 2 wheels off because I was the slower car and he as impatient...its HPDE...not NASCAR! Some of us are there to learn how to drive our cars better/faster/more in control.

-Justin

 

Most HPDEs I've been to have restricted let-by zones (which are never in corners). I've only been out a couple of times when it was "pass anywhere with a point-by". And I've never been out when it was "point-by optional". I'm quite surprised, in fact, that anyone in a novice group would be running in a pass-anywhere point-by-optional run group. But that's your choice, I guess.

As for the lawsuits -- you would be surprised at how hard it is to sue someone when you have signed a liability waiver. Popular mythology is that those things are useless, but it is not so. And what jury is not going to think to themselves, "this guy took his car out on a racetrack, and he got in an accident -- he got what he deserved." I guess that NSX driver could have tried to sue if he had wanted to, but I am 99.99% sure he would have lost. And besides, most track drivers aren't the type to sue anyway.

 

Yup, I've seen those too, and boy, can they get ugly...

 

If I stop to think about the close calls I have been involved in they all seem to fall within one basic category- someone passing me who was not given a point by. In general terms I'm a very considerate driver, I'm more than happy to get out of it, put my hand out the window and let someone by even if it looks like they are not really capable, I would rather have someone out in front of me where I can keep a good eye on them.

The problems I have encountered are things like going down the long back straight at The Glen, giving a point by (one hand movement) to a Viper, then another point by (another separate hand movement) for a BMW club racer, and then no more because it is time to get both hands on the wheel and start my braking. And as I'm about to turn in I see some dolt taking a 3rd point by that was not given but he wants to stay running with the two other cars. His error, but I damn near drove into his door.

And just this past school, I'm out front of a spec Miata, he is coming fast, I'm going to give him a point by at the next straight. We go through the corner and all I can see in front of me is blue smoke, I get right off the gas because I don't see a yellow flag but it will be coming soon and the layout of the track is such that I can't see very far in front of me. So what does the Miata do? He blows past me on the outside, no point by, discovers the slippery fluid on the track that was all part of the blue cloud issue and I have to take even more dramatic steps to keep from hitting him, again, not my fault at all.

The point here, know where you are on the track and know who is around you, and when in doubt give them the right of way, especially if they insist on taking it and being an ass. Driving schools have an inherent level of risk; you just have to deal with it...

 

one other thing that i've learned - is how to pass... more often than not the car you're coming up on is actually farily fast down the straights but it's (the driver) slow through the turns. if you get too close and brake where you'd normally brake there is a good chance of plowing into them or going off. in other words, say you take a corner at 50 mph and you're coming in at a 100 mph. you pick your braking point such that using the maximum braking of your car by the time the corner comes up you're at 50 mph. if the car in front of you takes this corner at 35 mph and you're close to the car on the straight, you may end up running out of brakes and plowing into his back bumper. so when i come up on slower traffic i let enough room between myself and the cars in front to avoid this situation, instead what I aim for is a good exit and to get close to the guy at the exit instead of under braking. that's safer and makes the pass easier since you have better speed already. just my $0.02.