Report from the SanDiego Tour!
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From: West Los Angeles
Originally posted by etgar
Anybody on the list take a drive in the car (or have some info)?
Etgar [/B]
Anybody on the list take a drive in the car (or have some info)?
Etgar [/B]
While Joe's times this weekend seem extrordinary, just as Gary T's have also been in this car, the only thing going on is that you've got a decently set up car and an excellent driver having a really good day.
Take a look at Saturday's times... my second run's scratch time was a 77.684, which at the time, would have been the leading time were it clean. Yet, I can tell you that even this run left A LOT on the table as I had made some rather large mistakes. A similar thing happened to me on Sunday. After my first run of 66.7 I came off the course thinking "oh yeah, a 65.x is out there easy". I think Joe's first run was something like a 66.4... and he probably thought the same thing was did. The difference being that he found it, and I apparently ran out of talent.
Joe's times were very realistic... the rest of us just couldnt make it happen for one reason or another (Annie and Ron were having a hard time getting their car setup to handle well on the Qualcomm surface... and Andy and Teresa were both complaining of brain farts like myself 
). Thats racing.Further, I've ridden along with Gary many times in that car and I know pretty well the details of his setup, and I can assure you, there's nothing magical about it and nothing so different than what many others are doing.
cheers,
jason keeney
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From: Chicago
Well, my insight to this after talking with Ron over the weekend is that Gary's car is the only truly full-prep car in existence. It has the trickest front swaybar, a very nice set of custom Konis, a Mugen exhaust (extra torque) and t-stat. Ron found out this past weekend that his shock valving was a bit off... even softer than stock! 
My point is - Gary Thomason sets his cars up right. His old Miata also won B-Stock in the hands of Tom Berry. Ron had his shock issues, Jason Keeney didn't have a front swaybar until this year, Steve Suscy didn't have shocks. So there are a bunch of people with partial prep - but Gary had full prep.
And Joe is an amazing driver - he goes fast in whatever he hops in. He's driven many an S2000 in Evolution schools, and already knew what to expect driving it. It didn't surprise me at all to see him top the charts. You get a top driver in an immaculately prepped cay, and look out - they don't need time to adjust, believe me!
There's nothing startlingly different about Gary's car. It simply is prepped well. Alignment is just as I posted in the other aligment thread... Shocks are the only unknown quantity. I was able to come within .1 of G.H.'s Boxster over two days of a Tour with stock shocks. With the right shock valving for the Penskes(not going to be easy to find) we should be able to run the types of times that Joe turned this weekend.
In conclusion - there's no secret other than a top-class driver in a perfectly prepped car. Hopefully this year there should be a few more knocking at that door.
My point is - Gary Thomason sets his cars up right. His old Miata also won B-Stock in the hands of Tom Berry. Ron had his shock issues, Jason Keeney didn't have a front swaybar until this year, Steve Suscy didn't have shocks. So there are a bunch of people with partial prep - but Gary had full prep.
And Joe is an amazing driver - he goes fast in whatever he hops in. He's driven many an S2000 in Evolution schools, and already knew what to expect driving it. It didn't surprise me at all to see him top the charts. You get a top driver in an immaculately prepped cay, and look out - they don't need time to adjust, believe me!
There's nothing startlingly different about Gary's car. It simply is prepped well. Alignment is just as I posted in the other aligment thread... Shocks are the only unknown quantity. I was able to come within .1 of G.H.'s Boxster over two days of a Tour with stock shocks. With the right shock valving for the Penskes(not going to be easy to find) we should be able to run the types of times that Joe turned this weekend.
In conclusion - there's no secret other than a top-class driver in a perfectly prepped car. Hopefully this year there should be a few more knocking at that door.
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From: Renton
Okay, here is some updated information. We had quite the rush to get up to LA and catch our flight home. Fortunately it was late otherwise we would have missed it. On the other hand, we didn't get home until 1:30 this morning.
BTW, the El Toro Pro is this coming weekend....
Yes, Joe did win by a fairly significant margin (1.7 seconds!) Both courses were a blast with rev limiter in 2nd gear possible in three places on each course, one of those being about 10 hits when I did it right.
San Diego is very interesting as it's the parking lot for Qualcom Stadium and it's on a hill side so you go from on camber to off camber on a very regular basis. There's a saying of being "San Diego'd" which refers to the fact that a number of people (myself included on Saturday) will slow down on runs and have no understanding why!
So, is Joe that good? Yes, Joe is very good. However he and I co-drove for 2 years in a Miata and an Audi A4. Typically we were swapping wins on a regular basis. Joe's first drive in the ex-Thomason machine was on Saturday morning when he got to the site. You have to keep in mind that Qualcom is Gary's home lot. Because of the peculiarities there, he has his car set up for that lot. Joe couldn't stop saying great things about the setup of the car, and watching him drive it, it seemed to be working very well.
On Sunday's course, I had a great 3rd run going that I blew the finish on, but even so, I don't think I could have matched his 3rd run time. 2nd run time, yes, 3rd, no!
So, what's my problem? Joe probably did outdrive me a little, but the main thing is the shock valving. This was really the first time that I was able to push on our car vs. another stook. It turns out that the valving for compression on our shocks is WAY too soft. I could easily make the front of our car move up and down and Joe's doesn't even budge. The rear is even more drastic! Just for a reference point, I also pushed on Mitch Fagundes' car which has stock shocks and it was a ton stiffer than ours also.
So, we've left the car down in California for the week and we'll be flying back down to go to the Pro this coming weekend. After that, we'll be bringing the car in to Fordahl Motorsports to get our shocks revalved. At least we found out early in the season.
Oh, just a couple of other items.....
Another ex-Thomason car (his National Champion Miata) was driven by Tom Berry to over a 1 second win in BS.
The weather was great, in the mid-70's to mid-80's. I have my first official sunburn of the year!
I think _we_ had the best looking S2000 at the event (sorry Jason...)
Once we get home Joe and Annie and I will be swapping rides in the two cars (we are all members of Team Butt Heat from when Joe and Anna and I co-drove together) to see how much difference there really is!
Ron
BTW, the El Toro Pro is this coming weekend....
Yes, Joe did win by a fairly significant margin (1.7 seconds!) Both courses were a blast with rev limiter in 2nd gear possible in three places on each course, one of those being about 10 hits when I did it right.
San Diego is very interesting as it's the parking lot for Qualcom Stadium and it's on a hill side so you go from on camber to off camber on a very regular basis. There's a saying of being "San Diego'd" which refers to the fact that a number of people (myself included on Saturday) will slow down on runs and have no understanding why!
So, is Joe that good? Yes, Joe is very good. However he and I co-drove for 2 years in a Miata and an Audi A4. Typically we were swapping wins on a regular basis. Joe's first drive in the ex-Thomason machine was on Saturday morning when he got to the site. You have to keep in mind that Qualcom is Gary's home lot. Because of the peculiarities there, he has his car set up for that lot. Joe couldn't stop saying great things about the setup of the car, and watching him drive it, it seemed to be working very well.
On Sunday's course, I had a great 3rd run going that I blew the finish on, but even so, I don't think I could have matched his 3rd run time. 2nd run time, yes, 3rd, no!
So, what's my problem? Joe probably did outdrive me a little, but the main thing is the shock valving. This was really the first time that I was able to push on our car vs. another stook. It turns out that the valving for compression on our shocks is WAY too soft. I could easily make the front of our car move up and down and Joe's doesn't even budge. The rear is even more drastic! Just for a reference point, I also pushed on Mitch Fagundes' car which has stock shocks and it was a ton stiffer than ours also.
So, we've left the car down in California for the week and we'll be flying back down to go to the Pro this coming weekend. After that, we'll be bringing the car in to Fordahl Motorsports to get our shocks revalved. At least we found out early in the season.
Oh, just a couple of other items.....
Another ex-Thomason car (his National Champion Miata) was driven by Tom Berry to over a 1 second win in BS.
The weather was great, in the mid-70's to mid-80's. I have my first official sunburn of the year!
I think _we_ had the best looking S2000 at the event (sorry Jason...)
Once we get home Joe and Annie and I will be swapping rides in the two cars (we are all members of Team Butt Heat from when Joe and Anna and I co-drove together) to see how much difference there really is!
Ron
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From: Chicago
I knew about you and Joe running equal back in the Butt-Heat days... my point about Joe was that he was in such a well set up car. I have no doubt that you could have run with him in the same car. Also, I have no doubt that when you get your car set up you'll be running with Joe. And, Jason Keeney has proved that he can run with Joe, as he did on Saturday (darn cones! 
) I just hope that when the east coast and west coast guys finally meet up (Nationals?) that WE can run with all of you!
Any of you thinking of going to the Texas events? Peru? It would be fun to run against each other before Nat's.
Oh, and for the record I agree with Ron about the best looking S2K at the event! While you GF did a great job, and is obviously talented, Jason - that doesn't change the fact that Yellow is the ONLY color!
) I just hope that when the east coast and west coast guys finally meet up (Nationals?) that WE can run with all of you! Any of you thinking of going to the Texas events? Peru? It would be fun to run against each other before Nat's.
Oh, and for the record I agree with Ron about the best looking S2K at the event! While you GF did a great job, and is obviously talented, Jason - that doesn't change the fact that Yellow is the ONLY color!
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From: Seattle, WA
all those who drove like a boob, please raise your hand...
Annie (timidly raising hand)
(had to sit on my second run Sunday where I almost spun at the finish, and lost tons o' time. My third run got red flagged because a certain unnamed S2K owner with an unusual paint job actually DID spin through the finish - then I blew the rerun...)
Annie (timidly raising hand)
(had to sit on my second run Sunday where I almost spun at the finish, and lost tons o' time. My third run got red flagged because a certain unnamed S2K owner with an unusual paint job actually DID spin through the finish - then I blew the rerun...)
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From: Milton
Jason Keeney,
I hope I didn't imply that I thought something fishy was going on! It was more directed towards what is different about the car. Thanks for the clarification guys.
Jason Saini,
My bar is finished - blade adjustable with hopefully the max stiffness slightly higher than the old Thomason car (as I understood it he said it wasn't enough in Topeka) and not having the rubbing problem. It's getting powdercoated now. I can't wait to try it out. I also just got the forged wheels - weights are ~13.4 lbs front and ~14.4 lbs rear (on a bathroom scale) - according to Bill Gendron if the delta is 3.5 lbs then it's similar to taking ~180 lbs off the car! Will pick up the car this week and try it out at the first event in this neck of the woods - April Fool's day!
Hope to meet some of you at the local tour event! I'm hoping to pick up some pointers (I was a novice last year).
Ron,
Any chance you'll be teaching at the NER evolution school? I'm planning on taking the Phase I.
Etgar
[Edited by etgar on 03-19-2001 at 10:42 AM]
I hope I didn't imply that I thought something fishy was going on! It was more directed towards what is different about the car. Thanks for the clarification guys.
Jason Saini,
My bar is finished - blade adjustable with hopefully the max stiffness slightly higher than the old Thomason car (as I understood it he said it wasn't enough in Topeka) and not having the rubbing problem. It's getting powdercoated now. I can't wait to try it out. I also just got the forged wheels - weights are ~13.4 lbs front and ~14.4 lbs rear (on a bathroom scale) - according to Bill Gendron if the delta is 3.5 lbs then it's similar to taking ~180 lbs off the car! Will pick up the car this week and try it out at the first event in this neck of the woods - April Fool's day!
Hope to meet some of you at the local tour event! I'm hoping to pick up some pointers (I was a novice last year).
Ron,
Any chance you'll be teaching at the NER evolution school? I'm planning on taking the Phase I.
Etgar
[Edited by etgar on 03-19-2001 at 10:42 AM]
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From: West Los Angeles
etgar,
oh no... I didnt think you were trying to imply that there was anything improper about the car... I just meant to make it clear that there really isnt anything radically different about Joe's car from what everyone else is doing preparation wise. And as Jason S pointed out, at the Nationals last year, that car truly was the best prepared car at that point.
oh and a note about Gary's (now Joe's) swaybar...
I think there's a bit of misinformation about the exact details of this bar. It's not as big as everyone thinks it is. I believe the common belief is that it's a 1.25" tube with .25" thick wall. This is, in fact, incorrect. It in reality has ~.190 thick walls. Also, the geometry is a bit different than the stock bar... the arms are designed to go OVER the steering linkage and are therefore much longer than stock, with much taller end links. The net result is a bar that is not as stiff as everyone thinks it is.
I know some people have called Tri-Point asking for details on their bar and may have been told that it had a .25" wall. But this is incorrect. When Gary first got the bar and I asked him what the dimensions were, he didnt know... so he called Tri-Point and asked but THEY didnt know. His bar was actually the same bar used on that real early "Pro-Parts S2000" that appeared in Sport Compact Car for their "tuner shootout" article, and the exact details of the bar were more or less forgotten between the time they built the prototype and the time it came off that car and was sold to Gary. So, he measured the bar himself and concluded ~.190 (probably .188, being that that would be a standard swaybar tube size).
So there you have it.
cheers,
jason keeney
[Edited by j2k on 03-19-2001 at 11:17 AM]
oh no... I didnt think you were trying to imply that there was anything improper about the car... I just meant to make it clear that there really isnt anything radically different about Joe's car from what everyone else is doing preparation wise. And as Jason S pointed out, at the Nationals last year, that car truly was the best prepared car at that point.
oh and a note about Gary's (now Joe's) swaybar...
I think there's a bit of misinformation about the exact details of this bar. It's not as big as everyone thinks it is. I believe the common belief is that it's a 1.25" tube with .25" thick wall. This is, in fact, incorrect. It in reality has ~.190 thick walls. Also, the geometry is a bit different than the stock bar... the arms are designed to go OVER the steering linkage and are therefore much longer than stock, with much taller end links. The net result is a bar that is not as stiff as everyone thinks it is.
I know some people have called Tri-Point asking for details on their bar and may have been told that it had a .25" wall. But this is incorrect. When Gary first got the bar and I asked him what the dimensions were, he didnt know... so he called Tri-Point and asked but THEY didnt know. His bar was actually the same bar used on that real early "Pro-Parts S2000" that appeared in Sport Compact Car for their "tuner shootout" article, and the exact details of the bar were more or less forgotten between the time they built the prototype and the time it came off that car and was sold to Gary. So, he measured the bar himself and concluded ~.190 (probably .188, being that that would be a standard swaybar tube size).
So there you have it.
cheers,
jason keeney
[Edited by j2k on 03-19-2001 at 11:17 AM]
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From: San Diego
Etgar, just got my 6-spokes today as well, they measured 13.65lbs front, 14.2 rear (averaged from two digital shipping scales), so your bathroom scale is pretty accurate! I'm not so sure about an equivalent 180lb reduction in weight though. While a 16lb reduction in mass rotating at axle speed certainly has greater effect than 16lbs out of the trunk, the equivalency factor I've read of is 3-5x, (not 10x+) depending on the average radius at which the weight is removed. I wimped out and mounted my S-02s on them for the street (instead of Kumhos for racing), and while I'm sure the car is quicker now, it's not perceptibly so.
On another note, I have to agree that Jason Keeney's car was the best looking last weekend in San Diego. Wow! But after checking out the website (www.spiritoftheflesh.com - some very cool art there, BTW), I don't know if I'd be as comfortable having paint-covered naked people rolling around on that fragile aluminum hood! Well, maybe if they were cute...
Cheers all,
Jason Rhoades
(just another Jason from SoCal)
On another note, I have to agree that Jason Keeney's car was the best looking last weekend in San Diego. Wow! But after checking out the website (www.spiritoftheflesh.com - some very cool art there, BTW), I don't know if I'd be as comfortable having paint-covered naked people rolling around on that fragile aluminum hood! Well, maybe if they were cute...
Cheers all,
Jason Rhoades
(just another Jason from SoCal)