S2000 Brake Fade on Track
10-17-2017, 12:01 PM
#41
Community Organizer
10-17-2017, 01:00 PM
#42
If you have to worry that much about a cool-down procedure, than the parts are not robust enough. Or have little to no safety factor. Whichever way you want to look at it. Can you imagine if proper race cars had to worry about cracking rotors every time they came in for a pit stop?
10-17-2017, 03:05 PM
#43
Community Organizer
If you have to worry that much about a cool-down procedure, than the parts are not robust enough. Or have little to no safety factor. Whichever way you want to look at it. Can you imagine if proper race cars had to worry about cracking rotors every time they came in for a pit stop?
We're talking a street car with stock rotors, race pads on a race track for 30 minutes, no cool down lap and parking it for 2 hours.
If you're cracking a stock rotor EVERY SESSION, you're doing something wrong. Do a cool down, add ducting or go to a BBK.
Last edited by freq; 10-17-2017 at 03:12 PM.
10-17-2017, 04:01 PM
#44
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I'd like to bring up something that has been bothering me as I read this thread. All of these brake fluids have high boiling points when dry. Seems to me that if the caliper is getting hot enough to boil fluid, then going to an even higher boiling point misses the big picture issue that the brake system just doesn't have enough thermal capacity for that situation. I have to think that wheel bearings are going to have issues sooner. Maybe also the ball joints will see shortened life. And how long will the caliper seals last?
Seems like this is a recipe for significant additional maintenance and perhaps catastrophic failures on the track.
I'm assuming that we're talking about HPDE events and not class racing with rules that limit changes. So at what point do you give up on the stock calipers and go BBK? To be clear, I am usually not an advocate for BBK. In my case, I am running Girodisc and URGE rotors along with DTC-60 pads in stock calipers. I have 2.5" ducts at all corners. This gives me enough thermal capacity for the tracks near me - and I'm at altitude so air doesn't cool as efficiently here. Of course, it's hard to compare the effects of different tracks so I realize the limitations of saying that because my setup meets my needs, that it should work for everyone else (I know it won't).
Just wanted to raise this issue of looking at things in a more holistic manner especially as far as reliability is concerned.
Seems like this is a recipe for significant additional maintenance and perhaps catastrophic failures on the track.
I'm assuming that we're talking about HPDE events and not class racing with rules that limit changes. So at what point do you give up on the stock calipers and go BBK? To be clear, I am usually not an advocate for BBK. In my case, I am running Girodisc and URGE rotors along with DTC-60 pads in stock calipers. I have 2.5" ducts at all corners. This gives me enough thermal capacity for the tracks near me - and I'm at altitude so air doesn't cool as efficiently here. Of course, it's hard to compare the effects of different tracks so I realize the limitations of saying that because my setup meets my needs, that it should work for everyone else (I know it won't).
Just wanted to raise this issue of looking at things in a more holistic manner especially as far as reliability is concerned.
I think the even bigger take away here is that the dry boiling point is basically theoretical. As soon as the seal is broken on a new bottle of brake fluid it becomes contaminated since we don’t live in a vacuum. That seems to be why Castrol SRF is far and away the best...all dry boiling temps are relatively close. SRF has the highest wet boiling temp by over 100 degrees.
Im trying to get some info on how frequent the brake fluid should be bled/flushed for different fluids.
Im trying to get some info on how frequent the brake fluid should be bled/flushed for different fluids.
10-17-2017, 11:11 PM
#45
Castrol SRF
or
Torque RT700 / Prospeed RS683
Will blow your mind away in terms of performance and they set themselves apart from the rest of the garbage
10-17-2017, 11:14 PM
#46
As for CR pads, it's probably not a fair comparison to the Hawk HP+; it's like comparing a Michelin Super Sport to a Bridgestone RE71R
10-19-2017, 06:40 AM
#47
ferodo DS2500s are pretty crappy pads
don't take my word for it, it's right on their website:
Ferodo Racing Official Website - DS2500 (H)
don't take my word for it, it's right on their website:
Ferodo Racing Official Website - DS2500 (H)
12-31-2017, 08:14 AM
#48
Long due update. I switched to the Project MU ClubRacer pads for the summer and the brake fade issue did resolve compared to my old XP10/8 setup. FYI I also run stock calipers, front brake ducting to center of rotor and still used RBF600. Will try SRF fluid for the coming summer.
Only thing I have yet to try to improve (if possible) is the brake pedal firmness/decreased pedal travel. I have always just bleed the brakes with RBF600 but hasn't really changed anything. For the next season I was going to try a few methods:
1. Hold pedal depressed overnight with a block - to remove air bubbles with pressure
2. Master cylinder bleed via robinette method
3. Installing a brake master cylinder brace
Anyone have experience with Master cylinder bleed in the car by hooking a fitting to ABS unit? I did try this once a couple years ago but didn't complete since when I depressed the brake pedal, tiny bubbles from recycled fluid would sit in the master cylinder. And since the bubbles don't clear rapidly I was worried that I would keep reintroducing bubbles into the system making the procedure useless. I was thinking of use cheap fluid to do it again and be more patient waiting for bubbles to rise with each pump. I was pretty sure my connections were air tight.
Only thing I have yet to try to improve (if possible) is the brake pedal firmness/decreased pedal travel. I have always just bleed the brakes with RBF600 but hasn't really changed anything. For the next season I was going to try a few methods:
1. Hold pedal depressed overnight with a block - to remove air bubbles with pressure
2. Master cylinder bleed via robinette method
3. Installing a brake master cylinder brace
Anyone have experience with Master cylinder bleed in the car by hooking a fitting to ABS unit? I did try this once a couple years ago but didn't complete since when I depressed the brake pedal, tiny bubbles from recycled fluid would sit in the master cylinder. And since the bubbles don't clear rapidly I was worried that I would keep reintroducing bubbles into the system making the procedure useless. I was thinking of use cheap fluid to do it again and be more patient waiting for bubbles to rise with each pump. I was pretty sure my connections were air tight.
Last edited by Xene; 12-31-2017 at 08:29 AM.
12-31-2017, 01:43 PM
#50
Long due update. I switched to the Project MU ClubRacer pads for the summer and the brake fade issue did resolve compared to my old XP10/8 setup. FYI I also run stock calipers, front brake ducting to center of rotor and still used RBF600. Will try SRF fluid for the coming summer.
Only thing I have yet to try to improve (if possible) is the brake pedal firmness/decreased pedal travel. I have always just bleed the brakes with RBF600 but hasn't really changed anything. For the next season I was going to try a few methods:
1. Hold pedal depressed overnight with a block - to remove air bubbles with pressure
2. Master cylinder bleed via robinette method
3. Installing a brake master cylinder brace
Anyone have experience with Master cylinder bleed in the car by hooking a fitting to ABS unit? I did try this once a couple years ago but didn't complete since when I depressed the brake pedal, tiny bubbles from recycled fluid would sit in the master cylinder. And since the bubbles don't clear rapidly I was worried that I would keep reintroducing bubbles into the system making the procedure useless. I was thinking of use cheap fluid to do it again and be more patient waiting for bubbles to rise with each pump. I was pretty sure my connections were air tight.
Only thing I have yet to try to improve (if possible) is the brake pedal firmness/decreased pedal travel. I have always just bleed the brakes with RBF600 but hasn't really changed anything. For the next season I was going to try a few methods:
1. Hold pedal depressed overnight with a block - to remove air bubbles with pressure
2. Master cylinder bleed via robinette method
3. Installing a brake master cylinder brace
Anyone have experience with Master cylinder bleed in the car by hooking a fitting to ABS unit? I did try this once a couple years ago but didn't complete since when I depressed the brake pedal, tiny bubbles from recycled fluid would sit in the master cylinder. And since the bubbles don't clear rapidly I was worried that I would keep reintroducing bubbles into the system making the procedure useless. I was thinking of use cheap fluid to do it again and be more patient waiting for bubbles to rise with each pump. I was pretty sure my connections were air tight.
As as far as fluid goes, as long as it's fresh, you're not gonna really see a difference between Motul and other high quality fluids.
the only thing short of a BBK I can think of that might help is a Master Cylinder brace. And stainless brake lines if you don't already have those.