S2000 Brake Fade on Track
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 5,106
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End of the day - you need a BBK for more serious track use. Stock braking system in the s2k is one of the weakest points in the entire system. A fast/skilled driver in a completely stock s2000 on RE71r or A052 or RS4s will fade the brakes and crack rotors.
"Casual use", Auto-x, canyon runs, etc. will have varying results - you can probably get away with better pads and cooling ducts.
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From: in my garage
....and yet, you can still win the NASA Honda Challenge H1 class with stock calipers, some 2 piece rotors and ducting ..... weak yes but not worthless.
Joined: Jan 2012
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From: Florida
Joined: Apr 2005
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From: Scottsdale, Az
Just because it can work doesn't mean it is cost effective over a long term. I effectively broke even with my C43 kit in a year.
Joined: Apr 2008
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From: Salt Lake City, UT
Agree with both points. Brake ducting, good pads and regularly flushing brake fluids all go a very long way. I ran on that setup for years, even on R-comps, and although I didn't have much brake fade, I did regularly crack rotors and always packed a couple spare rotors to every track day.
I decided to upgrade to BBK when I supercharged my S, and I do regret not doing so earlier. I've done about 25-30 track days on my BBK, and my pads are only 50% worn and the rotors look perfect. As far as cost effective, a pair of replacement rotor rings for my BBK costs $1300 (vs. $50-100 for OEM-replacement blanks) and I haven't needed to replace them yet so can't really factor in the cost/longevity value of the rotor yet. But it sure is nice not worrying about the brakes anymore.
I decided to upgrade to BBK when I supercharged my S, and I do regret not doing so earlier. I've done about 25-30 track days on my BBK, and my pads are only 50% worn and the rotors look perfect. As far as cost effective, a pair of replacement rotor rings for my BBK costs $1300 (vs. $50-100 for OEM-replacement blanks) and I haven't needed to replace them yet so can't really factor in the cost/longevity value of the rotor yet. But it sure is nice not worrying about the brakes anymore.
Last edited by VitaRenovatio; May 7, 2020 at 11:23 AM.
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Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,335
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From: Reno, Nevada
A true BBK is always going to offer the longest pad/rotor life and most convenience but there's obviously the cost of entry to get past. If you're not looking to spend that much just yet we did a batch of PFC 08 endurance compound for the stock front calipers. I've been using them on the street for the last couple months while track events have been shut down and they work surprisingly well as a dual use pad- plenty of cold bite and have actually been quiet on the street. Wear rates also seem to be better than anything else currently available for this car in the stock calipers. We've been pairing with the 97 rear compound until we can get 08s made for the rear.
Check them out if you're interested:
PERFORMANCE FRICTION BRAKE PADS 0829.08.16.44 HONDA S2000 FRONT *S2KI INTRODUCTORY SALE*
-Matt M.
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Joined: Nov 2003
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From: in my garage
So many variables here. Disposable cash, desire to compete or be competitive, etc....
Joined: Jul 2015
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Joined: Aug 2010
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I'll quote myself since i've posted this in other BBK threads, but the finances of a BBK over the stock OEM system are in favor of running a BBK - even if you need to buy wheels since wheels will have residual value and can be sold later.
Anyway - the financial pros of running a BBK. Analysis below was with ST40 kit. the Wilwood Sake Bomb kit will be cheaper - rotor ring replacement is cheaper too.
Anyway - the financial pros of running a BBK. Analysis below was with ST40 kit. the Wilwood Sake Bomb kit will be cheaper - rotor ring replacement is cheaper too.
TL;DR - if you're fast and track your car regularly, then a BBK is absolutely worth it. You can go with one of the cheaper options too - Stoptech ST40 kit for ~$1500 or the Sake Bomb Wilwood kit for $1250 or so.
I posted this before, but here's my "brake" down of cost effectiveness with the stoptech ST40 kit (purchased at $1500).
I tracked the car stock on street tires (RS3/RE-11a) for two years with 12 track days a year. Pads were XP10/XP8 or DTC70 with RBF600. Car had 2.5" brake ducts. Pads and rotors would not last longer than 4 track days (sometimes only 3). Rotors would crack and pads would be down to backing plates.
A set of front pads on OEM calipers = $200
Set of front rotors = $100
Total cost = $300.
Replacing pads/rotors every 3-4 track days with 12 track days a year = $900-$1200 per year. not to mention, lost track time if you're doing a track side replacement due to a cracked rotor, which is expensive at ~$130 to $200 for a track day.
My Stoptech ST40 kit cost $1500. DTC70 pads cost $240, or i can step down and use a less aggressive pad HC800+ which costs $170 on the ST40 caliper.
So far I have 10 track days on on the HC800+ pads and am still on the original rotors. They have a ton of life left.
Other users have reported 20-25 track days before replacing rotors.
Assuming 24 track days and replacements every 3.5 track days,
that equals 6.8 replacements, which is ~7 replacements if you were on stock rotors.
7*300 = $2100 over two years (OEM setup)
BBK
-$1500 initial cost
-$180 pads.
-Rotor ring replacement = $500
-another set of pads = $180
Total = $2300
That's over two years. Keep in mind that your BBK has residual value and that you can easily sell that BBK for $1000 if you part the car out. That brings that cost down to $1300. No one is looking to buy used OEM calipers and rotors...
If you drive the car and track for longer than two years, it pays for itself and continues to decrease your cost of tracking.
That doesn't even go into the benefits of the actual performance difference, which is pedal feel/consistency over a 25 minute session, and no brake fade at all.
The s2000 is under-braked for track use. For street use, just buy better pads, lines, and fluid - not a problem. For serious track use, once you start getting up to speed, a BBK is extremely beneficial and under-rated. I actually bought a BBK before coilovers - financially, they made sense based on how often I was going to track and will be going to track.
I calculate 4 year use at 12 track days a year as this.
OEM calipers and rotors
-4 years at 12/ year = 48 days
-Replace every 3.5 days = 13.7 replacements
-13.7*300 = $4110
BBK
-4 years at 12/ year = 48 days
-Purchase BBK and track pads = $1680
-Replace rings and pads every 24 track days = 2 replacements
-2*(500+180) = $1360
-Total = $1360 + $1680 = $3040
-Sell BBK when done with car = -$1000
-New Total = $2040
Difference of OEM vs BBK over 4 years = $4110 - $2040 = $2070
So, yes, a BBK will pay for itself and then some if you actually track the car and are driving the car fast enough.
I posted this before, but here's my "brake" down of cost effectiveness with the stoptech ST40 kit (purchased at $1500).
I tracked the car stock on street tires (RS3/RE-11a) for two years with 12 track days a year. Pads were XP10/XP8 or DTC70 with RBF600. Car had 2.5" brake ducts. Pads and rotors would not last longer than 4 track days (sometimes only 3). Rotors would crack and pads would be down to backing plates.
A set of front pads on OEM calipers = $200
Set of front rotors = $100
Total cost = $300.
Replacing pads/rotors every 3-4 track days with 12 track days a year = $900-$1200 per year. not to mention, lost track time if you're doing a track side replacement due to a cracked rotor, which is expensive at ~$130 to $200 for a track day.
My Stoptech ST40 kit cost $1500. DTC70 pads cost $240, or i can step down and use a less aggressive pad HC800+ which costs $170 on the ST40 caliper.
So far I have 10 track days on on the HC800+ pads and am still on the original rotors. They have a ton of life left.
Other users have reported 20-25 track days before replacing rotors.
Assuming 24 track days and replacements every 3.5 track days,
that equals 6.8 replacements, which is ~7 replacements if you were on stock rotors.
7*300 = $2100 over two years (OEM setup)
BBK
-$1500 initial cost
-$180 pads.
-Rotor ring replacement = $500
-another set of pads = $180
Total = $2300
That's over two years. Keep in mind that your BBK has residual value and that you can easily sell that BBK for $1000 if you part the car out. That brings that cost down to $1300. No one is looking to buy used OEM calipers and rotors...
If you drive the car and track for longer than two years, it pays for itself and continues to decrease your cost of tracking.
That doesn't even go into the benefits of the actual performance difference, which is pedal feel/consistency over a 25 minute session, and no brake fade at all.
The s2000 is under-braked for track use. For street use, just buy better pads, lines, and fluid - not a problem. For serious track use, once you start getting up to speed, a BBK is extremely beneficial and under-rated. I actually bought a BBK before coilovers - financially, they made sense based on how often I was going to track and will be going to track.
I calculate 4 year use at 12 track days a year as this.
OEM calipers and rotors
-4 years at 12/ year = 48 days
-Replace every 3.5 days = 13.7 replacements
-13.7*300 = $4110
BBK
-4 years at 12/ year = 48 days
-Purchase BBK and track pads = $1680
-Replace rings and pads every 24 track days = 2 replacements
-2*(500+180) = $1360
-Total = $1360 + $1680 = $3040
-Sell BBK when done with car = -$1000
-New Total = $2040
Difference of OEM vs BBK over 4 years = $4110 - $2040 = $2070
So, yes, a BBK will pay for itself and then some if you actually track the car and are driving the car fast enough.
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,318
Likes: 125
From: Scottsdale, Az
Consumables drop even lower when you look at the C43 kit. I paid $1825 for mine with the SR33 pads included, which are great. I believe you can get the kit even cheaper if you shop around a bit, but I was supporting a friend.
Rotor rings are $100 a piece; pads are thicker and half the price of the ST40
https://www.zeckhausen.com/catalog/i...th=24_7425_411 vs https://www.zeckhausen.com/catalog/i...h=24_7425_7659
Rotor rings are $100 a piece; pads are thicker and half the price of the ST40
https://www.zeckhausen.com/catalog/i...th=24_7425_411 vs https://www.zeckhausen.com/catalog/i...h=24_7425_7659