S2K Challenge Rules - WEIGHT REDUCTION
11-17-2010, 04:57 PM
#1
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 418
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
S2K Challenge Rules - WEIGHT REDUCTION
Hey Folks,
We have had some protests come up regarding Jim's car and it's lightweight nature. These concerns were first brought to MY attention at the last SOW event, although apparently they had been circulating for a while before that. Several issues concern me about the rules, including the rules for protesting, which I'd like to discuss. Also, I would like people to provide their opinions regarding Jim's car and Jim's results and what we should do if anything:
1.
Drivers should lodge concerns, complaints, protests, whinnies, neighs, croaks, etc. with a Speed Ventures official (in this case, me) as soon as they arise so that we can deal with the issue sooner rather than later. Going forward, other competitors, including our hardworking and fearless leader, Ed, should not be the ones receiving these informal or formal complaints. This keeps the separation of official and competitor. By filing complaints or concerns in a timely fashion, we don't build up begrudging feelings within our friendly community.
2.
I have evaluated Jim's car based on his build sheet, where he listed every modification. I know there are plans to have a "weigh in" this weekend, and that's fine, but I think the primary problem here is apparent. It is the rules. I believe the rules the competitors jointly formed allow for a massive amount of weight reduction without penalty. Jim's car is out of Modified specifications by about 20-40 lbs. depending on certain weights of some items. The other 260-280lbs is legal. Please refer to the information below re. Jim's car.
3.
Jim as agreed to put everything back in the car listed below in the Questionable and Not Allowed section for the last event of the year.
4.
There is only 1 question on the table re. Jim: should his results be DQ'd for the SOW event? I'm tossing out a couple arguments for and against. Not that others won't have their own arguments for and against to toss into the mix:
Argument For: Jim was warned by Ed after ACS event to put everything back in car.
Argument Against: The out-of-spec weight reductions Jim has are insignificant and are compensated for by the fact that other drivers in the series may have one or two things that are not quite within the rules also and which are equally significant (or insignificant, depending on your view).
Note: It is my opinion that Jim should NOT be penalized for having a really light car since his car is really light because he optimized the rules. The question is whether he should be penalized for those items listed in the Questionable and Not Allowed Section.
5.
It is apparent that the rules need to be heavily reviewed and modified for next year so that it is not legal to have a car that is 300lbs. lighter than stock running in the modified class.
6.
THE JIM TWAY MOBILE:
ALLOWED WEIGHT REDUCTION (either free or assigned points for MOD class)
Carbon Fiber Trunk Lid
Soft Top/Motor/Hardware Replaced with Hard Top
Front Fender Liners Removed
Front Side Markers Removed
Stock Hood Trimmed
Drivers Seat & Belts Replaced with Race Seat & Belts
Steering Wheel Replaced with Race Wheel
Passenger Seat Removed
Radio & Speakers Removed
Air Conditioning System Removed
Stock Wheels Replaced with Enkei 17x9
Stock Battery Replaced with 9-lb. Battery
Air Pump and Lines Removed
Catalytic Converter Replaced with Test Pipe
Exhaust Replaced with T1R SS single exhaust
Spare Tire Removed
Tool Kit Removed
Mats Removed
QUESTIONABLE AND NOT ALLOWED WEIGHT REDUCTIONS
Passenger Seat Belt and Airbag Removed (I'd like to know what these weigh)
All Trim Aft of Seats Removed (rather than minimum to install rollbar. I'd like to know what this stuff weighs)
Cruise Control Unit Removed - est. at 7 lbs.
Wipers Removed (motors still installed) - 1.5 lbs.
Wiper Reservoir Removed - 1.0 lbs.
NOTES
-- Ed approved Jim's removal of front bumper bar to accomodate APR bumper because: Stock Bumper + Bumper Bar = APR Bumper in Weight.
-- Stock Mirrors Replaced with APR Carbon Mirrors - Aaron approved this since many others made this swap and an entire carbon fiber door replacement is allowed, which would probably include aftermarket mirrors anyway.
We have had some protests come up regarding Jim's car and it's lightweight nature. These concerns were first brought to MY attention at the last SOW event, although apparently they had been circulating for a while before that. Several issues concern me about the rules, including the rules for protesting, which I'd like to discuss. Also, I would like people to provide their opinions regarding Jim's car and Jim's results and what we should do if anything:
1.
Drivers should lodge concerns, complaints, protests, whinnies, neighs, croaks, etc. with a Speed Ventures official (in this case, me) as soon as they arise so that we can deal with the issue sooner rather than later. Going forward, other competitors, including our hardworking and fearless leader, Ed, should not be the ones receiving these informal or formal complaints. This keeps the separation of official and competitor. By filing complaints or concerns in a timely fashion, we don't build up begrudging feelings within our friendly community.
2.
I have evaluated Jim's car based on his build sheet, where he listed every modification. I know there are plans to have a "weigh in" this weekend, and that's fine, but I think the primary problem here is apparent. It is the rules. I believe the rules the competitors jointly formed allow for a massive amount of weight reduction without penalty. Jim's car is out of Modified specifications by about 20-40 lbs. depending on certain weights of some items. The other 260-280lbs is legal. Please refer to the information below re. Jim's car.
3.
Jim as agreed to put everything back in the car listed below in the Questionable and Not Allowed section for the last event of the year.
4.
There is only 1 question on the table re. Jim: should his results be DQ'd for the SOW event? I'm tossing out a couple arguments for and against. Not that others won't have their own arguments for and against to toss into the mix:
Argument For: Jim was warned by Ed after ACS event to put everything back in car.
Argument Against: The out-of-spec weight reductions Jim has are insignificant and are compensated for by the fact that other drivers in the series may have one or two things that are not quite within the rules also and which are equally significant (or insignificant, depending on your view).
Note: It is my opinion that Jim should NOT be penalized for having a really light car since his car is really light because he optimized the rules. The question is whether he should be penalized for those items listed in the Questionable and Not Allowed Section.
5.
It is apparent that the rules need to be heavily reviewed and modified for next year so that it is not legal to have a car that is 300lbs. lighter than stock running in the modified class.
6.
THE JIM TWAY MOBILE:
ALLOWED WEIGHT REDUCTION (either free or assigned points for MOD class)
Carbon Fiber Trunk Lid
Soft Top/Motor/Hardware Replaced with Hard Top
Front Fender Liners Removed
Front Side Markers Removed
Stock Hood Trimmed
Drivers Seat & Belts Replaced with Race Seat & Belts
Steering Wheel Replaced with Race Wheel
Passenger Seat Removed
Radio & Speakers Removed
Air Conditioning System Removed
Stock Wheels Replaced with Enkei 17x9
Stock Battery Replaced with 9-lb. Battery
Air Pump and Lines Removed
Catalytic Converter Replaced with Test Pipe
Exhaust Replaced with T1R SS single exhaust
Spare Tire Removed
Tool Kit Removed
Mats Removed
QUESTIONABLE AND NOT ALLOWED WEIGHT REDUCTIONS
Passenger Seat Belt and Airbag Removed (I'd like to know what these weigh)
All Trim Aft of Seats Removed (rather than minimum to install rollbar. I'd like to know what this stuff weighs)
Cruise Control Unit Removed - est. at 7 lbs.
Wipers Removed (motors still installed) - 1.5 lbs.
Wiper Reservoir Removed - 1.0 lbs.
NOTES
-- Ed approved Jim's removal of front bumper bar to accomodate APR bumper because: Stock Bumper + Bumper Bar = APR Bumper in Weight.
-- Stock Mirrors Replaced with APR Carbon Mirrors - Aaron approved this since many others made this swap and an entire carbon fiber door replacement is allowed, which would probably include aftermarket mirrors anyway.
11-17-2010, 05:22 PM
#2
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
Posts: 1,839
Likes: 0
Received 21 Likes
on
10 Posts
I'm pretty familiar with this year's rules, as I was pretty heavily involved in its formation last year, and here's my take:
I would allow the passenger seat belt removal, since both the passenger seat and the rear bulkhead was likely removed to make room for the roll bar. He is already taking a penalty for the passenger seat removal anyway, and why should he buy a set of harness belts for a non-existent seat?
I would need clarification on what "all trim aft of seats" means. Does that mean he gutted his trunk? That is not allowed. Just what's necessary to install the roll-bar. Besides the trunk trim, I don't recall any other trim.
The passenger airbag removal is not allowed. I wouldn't put that in the questionable category.
Removal of air pump and lines is not allowed. I wouldn't put that in the allowed category.
I would allow the passenger seat belt removal, since both the passenger seat and the rear bulkhead was likely removed to make room for the roll bar. He is already taking a penalty for the passenger seat removal anyway, and why should he buy a set of harness belts for a non-existent seat?
I would need clarification on what "all trim aft of seats" means. Does that mean he gutted his trunk? That is not allowed. Just what's necessary to install the roll-bar. Besides the trunk trim, I don't recall any other trim.
The passenger airbag removal is not allowed. I wouldn't put that in the questionable category.
Removal of air pump and lines is not allowed. I wouldn't put that in the allowed category.
11-17-2010, 05:54 PM
#3
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 658
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Aaron,
Regarding the aft trim, pretty much every piece of plastic aft of the seats, but still in the cockpit, has to be removed for a roll bar. The trunk plastic trim/carpet is in the trunk, and does not need to removed for the roll bar. Here are the weights of the items that should have been on the car. I also just found out that the 2006 models and later no longer have the cruise control actuator box.
QUESTIONABLE AND NOT ALLOWED WEIGHT REDUCTIONS
Passenger Seat Belt - 4 lbs
Passenger Airbag - 6 lbs
Trunk trim - 6 lbs
Cruise Control Unit Removed - actually only 2 lbs, not 7
Wipers Removed (motors still installed) - 1.5 lbs
Wiper Reservoir Removed - 1.0 lbs
Total - 18.5 not including the Cruise Control actuator
Nam,
The air pump removal falls under the updating/backdating rule. The air pump was removed after the 2006 model year. I also would argue that the passenger airbag removal should be allowed only if you install a passenger seat with a 6-point harness.
To everyone,
I'd like to say that I wasn't trying to be deviant or cheat the rules. I simply overlooked these items.
Regards,
Jim
Regarding the aft trim, pretty much every piece of plastic aft of the seats, but still in the cockpit, has to be removed for a roll bar. The trunk plastic trim/carpet is in the trunk, and does not need to removed for the roll bar. Here are the weights of the items that should have been on the car. I also just found out that the 2006 models and later no longer have the cruise control actuator box.
QUESTIONABLE AND NOT ALLOWED WEIGHT REDUCTIONS
Passenger Seat Belt - 4 lbs
Passenger Airbag - 6 lbs
Trunk trim - 6 lbs
Cruise Control Unit Removed - actually only 2 lbs, not 7
Wipers Removed (motors still installed) - 1.5 lbs
Wiper Reservoir Removed - 1.0 lbs
Total - 18.5 not including the Cruise Control actuator
Nam,
The air pump removal falls under the updating/backdating rule. The air pump was removed after the 2006 model year. I also would argue that the passenger airbag removal should be allowed only if you install a passenger seat with a 6-point harness.
To everyone,
I'd like to say that I wasn't trying to be deviant or cheat the rules. I simply overlooked these items.
Regards,
Jim
11-17-2010, 06:02 PM
#4
...
Well....if we are going to be sticklers... A LOT of us have broken the rules.
"OTHER
- ANY more interior / exterior removal than specifically allowed above will result in Unlimited classification (including bumper beams)
- no NOS allowed in the competition"
What if I remove my floor matts...Ive seen plenty of people run without a review mirror.... Ed said it was clear but its not. I do however have a suggestion to these kind of situations. Put a "point" penalty for that person forcing them to remove a critical part on their car to stay in that class and still be able to finish the day.
But as Aaron said, we need to address ASAP. We all know each other and as long as we are upfront and non confrontational, we can learn form these things and improve our sport.
While there are certain things that were removed from Jims car, I dont know if it was the deciding factor in his win @ SOW. That was is a good amount but not substantial....driver weight plays a bigger part IMHO.
Im anywhere from 25-40 lbs more than Jim, Mike, Mark, Si, Daryl and Alex.
For the record, MOD guys had a talk and I mentioned I could get my weight down close to Jims, stay within 10 points ~2723 full tank and driver.
I can certainly understand peoples concern and questions and Its good we can get these kind of things out in the open.
This ones for Ed
(Devils Advocate) How can we justify air pump removal (not in the rules) only because 06+ does not have it.
Fil fought to the teeth about the AC removal and thats "from the factory" car.
I guess what Im trying to get at is we all assumed and never addressed it properly in a timely manner...
So much I wanted to discuss in person
Well....if we are going to be sticklers... A LOT of us have broken the rules.
"OTHER
- ANY more interior / exterior removal than specifically allowed above will result in Unlimited classification (including bumper beams)
- no NOS allowed in the competition"
What if I remove my floor matts...Ive seen plenty of people run without a review mirror.... Ed said it was clear but its not. I do however have a suggestion to these kind of situations. Put a "point" penalty for that person forcing them to remove a critical part on their car to stay in that class and still be able to finish the day.
But as Aaron said, we need to address ASAP. We all know each other and as long as we are upfront and non confrontational, we can learn form these things and improve our sport.
While there are certain things that were removed from Jims car, I dont know if it was the deciding factor in his win @ SOW. That was is a good amount but not substantial....driver weight plays a bigger part IMHO.
Im anywhere from 25-40 lbs more than Jim, Mike, Mark, Si, Daryl and Alex.
For the record, MOD guys had a talk and I mentioned I could get my weight down close to Jims, stay within 10 points ~2723 full tank and driver.
I can certainly understand peoples concern and questions and Its good we can get these kind of things out in the open.
This ones for Ed
(Devils Advocate) How can we justify air pump removal (not in the rules) only because 06+ does not have it.Fil fought to the teeth about the AC removal and thats "from the factory" car.
I guess what Im trying to get at is we all assumed and never addressed it properly in a timely manner...
So much I wanted to discuss in person
11-17-2010, 08:04 PM
#6
I just noticed you can remove your seat, but not your belt...I dont want harness flopping around at 100+ lol
Does it also mean that the stock driver must remain too??? Its stuff like this on how I arrive that a simple mirror updgrade would be OK.
But one other thing Jim, air bag removal for sure is something I think most of us would agree to be not allowed....but then, we do remove Driver side...
I thought of something that would make next year VERY easy to understand and follow...if you plan to do a mod, remove a part and if you dont see it listed...ASK first lol
Ed..I know yor busy but maybe an emial list/PM screen name might help "spread the word" when something is questioned and an answer is given on rules??
I know Aaron has all emials...but we still need to match screen names....
Does it also mean that the stock driver must remain too??? Its stuff like this on how I arrive that a simple mirror updgrade would be OK.
But one other thing Jim, air bag removal for sure is something I think most of us would agree to be not allowed....but then, we do remove Driver side...
I thought of something that would make next year VERY easy to understand and follow...if you plan to do a mod, remove a part and if you dont see it listed...ASK first lol
Ed..I know yor busy but maybe an emial list/PM screen name might help "spread the word" when something is questioned and an answer is given on rules??
I know Aaron has all emials...but we still need to match screen names....
Trending Topics
11-17-2010, 08:24 PM
#8
Registered User
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Temple City
Posts: 549
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It will be hard to monitor what people remove and not, randomly weighting the top finisher is the ideal route. Set minimum weight for each class. This will eliminate the need to sell and buy various part to accommodate the rules.
11-17-2010, 08:42 PM
#10
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: LA/OC
Posts: 1,549
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
First and foremost, I'd like to emphasize that the S2K Challenge is an evolving Series that's probably still in the infant stage. The fact that these types of active discussions are being held is a reflection of the competitor's passion for the Series, which is a good thing. 
I believe that the process of consensus-gathering for rule creation continues to be the best approach. This makes the majority happy, but of course there will be a (vocal) minority that will not be happy. It is my hope that the Series will continue to grow and improve, and we need to work together to achieve that goal...
Jim, we all know that's not the case and we are not questioning your character. We all know you are a stand-up guy. 
Plus, the magnifying glass will always fall upon the top performers in any autosport...it's inevitable.
Full disclosure: After getting frustrated with my brake duct install, I decided to tear off my air pump so I could make more room. I honestly didn't think about the weight rules at that time. However, when it was brought to my attention, this rule was brought up:
- updating or backdating anything except CR performance-enhancing parts
And it seemed to fit the bill. Kinda like AP2 guys running the lighter AP1 flywheels. However, if this is not agreed upon by the majority, then I am perfectly fine with throwing the air pump back on.
This is a good point Chris. There needs to be serious consideration on how the rules should be governed in 2011.
Having open discussions on the forums and going with the majority can be time-consuming and inconclusive.
The steering committee approach we used in 2009 seemed to work well; but since the members of the committee were all participants, there are possible conflicts of interest.
Not sure what the optimal solution is but we should give some serious thought about it for 2011.
I believe that the process of consensus-gathering for rule creation continues to be the best approach. This makes the majority happy, but of course there will be a (vocal) minority that will not be happy. It is my hope that the Series will continue to grow and improve, and we need to work together to achieve that goal...
To everyone,
I'd like to say that I wasn't trying to be deviant or cheat the rules. I simply overlooked these items.
Regards,
Jim
I'd like to say that I wasn't trying to be deviant or cheat the rules. I simply overlooked these items.
Regards,
Jim
Plus, the magnifying glass will always fall upon the top performers in any autosport...it's inevitable.
How can we justify air pump removal (not in the rules) only because 06+ does not have it.
- updating or backdating anything except CR performance-enhancing parts
And it seemed to fit the bill. Kinda like AP2 guys running the lighter AP1 flywheels. However, if this is not agreed upon by the majority, then I am perfectly fine with throwing the air pump back on.
Ed..I know yor busy but maybe an emial list/PM screen name might help "spread the word" when something is questioned and an answer is given on rules??
Having open discussions on the forums and going with the majority can be time-consuming and inconclusive.
The steering committee approach we used in 2009 seemed to work well; but since the members of the committee were all participants, there are possible conflicts of interest.
Not sure what the optimal solution is but we should give some serious thought about it for 2011.