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Sakebomb Garage Designed AP Racing Competition Front Big Brake Kit

 
Old 04-21-2016, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by SlowTeg View Post
Originally Posted by SakeBomb Garage' timestamp='1460767979' post='23939586
Oh absolutely, they're in a different league cost wise. The standard Stoptech calipers themselves are just so insanely heavy, we couldn't see a functional reason why... but that said, we've never weighed the Trophy kit so I can't say on that front.
Isn't the stoptech caliper based on/a copy of a porsche brembo caliper? I'm not sure why Brembo made it so heavy but I've seen some other porsche calipers and they hardly look lightweight either..

Either way you can't go wrong with either one in my book (especially at their respective prices). Both are leaps and bounds better than the oem brakes it's like arguing if you'd rather have a 16" or 17" schlong.
Stoptech uses a brute force approach to brakes... need more capacity, just add more rotor. Need a stiffer caliper? Add more material. Stoptech is made in China for pennies on the dollar, don't let the glossy red paint fool you, you're not getting much engineering for your money.

AP's approach is efficiency. It's a balance between weight and performance. A high level of engineering and years of motorsports testing and experience goes into each product they produce, which is why we build our kits around their parts. Instead of adding mass to a caliper to increase rigidity they use different forging techniques, better materials, and only add mass in areas that would increase stiffness, not all over. For their brake rotors they use a high vane count (70 per rotor in this case) and a wide air gap to bleed off heat very quickly and efficiently.

The rotor width on our setup is a full 32mm wide, but 28mm on the Stoptech. And the AP has a wider air gap... they can do this because their proprietary metallurgy is extremely heat stable and can rapidly heat cycle over and over without stressing the disc, and the floating bobbin design is superior to the Stoptech design as well. At the end of the day you've got a more stable disc which allows you to increase the air gap which increases efficiency while keeping weight down.
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Old 04-25-2016, 09:15 AM
  #22  
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Old 04-25-2016, 11:46 AM
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Are the AP Racing brake parts made in the UK or somewhere else?
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Old 04-26-2016, 05:30 AM
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Originally Posted by SakeBomb Garage View Post
Originally Posted by DTP525' timestamp='1460465219' post='23935490
What's the cost of replacement rotor rings on this 325mm set? The 299mm rotor rings were fairly priced making them a good option at the time.
$245 for the 325mm
$173 for the 299mm

The cost is a bit higher, but the service life is much longer. If I were to take a guess, back to back, you're still going to come out ahead with the larger discs as far as dollars per year per rotor. Apples for apples (299 vs 325) you're able to run a less aggressive pad as the rotor temps are lower, which will will be more gentle to discs and will create less micro-cracking in the rotor surface over time. Honestly I can't say for sure, but based on our disc-reorders from the FD 325mm kits, I'd bet the 325 is a better "bargain" if you look at ring replacement costs over an entire race season.
A couple things conversation points I'd like to bring up:
  • A quick search shows the 328x28 StopTech replacement ring is $300, so a great cost savings there. After a year of tracking and many autocrosses, I'm finally starting to see micro cracks on the StopTech rotor surface. I give them another six months before I will become concerned over their integrity. Even without front brake ducting, and the arguably more inefficient 328x28 rotor design, thermal dispersion and capacity are about right for the S2000. I don't know how the AP 299x32 compares but I imagine it isn't far off.
  • The smaller AP 299, as well as the StopTech 328, are both designed for stock rear bias. You've addressed the 325 bias issue this with your RX8 rear kit, but that is an added cost to be considered. I went with a vented rear to keep the bias the same. In either case, the rear isn't up to the task.
  • The StopTechs are relatively heavy compared to the competition, weighing 7-8lbs to the 5-6lbs of most other offerings; they are still 1-2lbs lighter than the OEM calipers. I myself have dealt with some minor design issues relating to the retention of some bolts, but even if they are Chinese junk they still fit perfectly, are durable, have rebuild parts readily available, do the job exactly as described, and are proven time and time again on track.
  • Assuming a purchase price of $3000 for an AP kit to the $2000 of the StopTech, factor in $100 per rotor price difference, and you are still looking at five sets of rings to make up the cost. **Obviously this math is bogus because it doesn't also account for pads and other variations in wear and tear.
  • StopTech uses 18mm pads, leaving only a 2mm discrepancy from some vendors. Some vendors do not offer the full 20mm pads and some vendors have limited selection or add a premium to the AP pads. Carbotech offers 20mm and similar pricing, Cobalt offers 16.5mm and a $50 premium listed by some pad fitment number, Hawk doesn't even list the 8350 as a supported caliper.
  • StopTech will fit under a select few 17x9+60ET wheels and most wheels spaced out to +55. Using a 17x9+63 Volk CE28N, the StopTech needs an 8mm spacer while the AP required a 15-18mm spacer. With upper offset bushings I'm ok with a +55 wheel under the front fender; anything more will eventually lead to fender damage. The AP caliper is not friendly to the extremely high offsets of the S2000.

I'm not against the AP kit at all. I consider it the highest end of braking solutions. In the end, it isn't so simple as AP is better than StopTech- they each have their pros and cons to be weighed against one another.
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Old 04-26-2016, 05:39 AM
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Originally Posted by imstimpy View Post
A couple things conversation points I'd like to bring up:
  • A quick search shows the 328x28 StopTech replacement ring is $300, so a great cost savings there. After a year of tracking and many autocrosses, I'm finally starting to see micro cracks on the StopTech rotor surface. I give them another six months before I will become concerned over their integrity. Even without front brake ducting, and the arguably more inefficient 328x28 rotor design, thermal dispersion and capacity are about right for the S2000. I don't know how the AP 299x32 compares but I imagine it isn't far off.
I just wanted to say that I have gotten replacement Stoptech 328x28 rotors for as cheap as $225 per rotor shipped with new hardware and thread locker to install them to the hats.
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Old 04-26-2016, 05:48 AM
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Good post imstimpy! Wheel offset is most certainly a concern for myself as well and something worth thinking about for others.
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Old 04-26-2016, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by King Tut View Post
Originally Posted by imstimpy' timestamp='1461677436' post='23948630
A couple things conversation points I'd like to bring up:
  • A quick search shows the 328x28 StopTech replacement ring is $300, so a great cost savings there. After a year of tracking and many autocrosses, I'm finally starting to see micro cracks on the StopTech rotor surface. I give them another six months before I will become concerned over their integrity. Even without front brake ducting, and the arguably more inefficient 328x28 rotor design, thermal dispersion and capacity are about right for the S2000. I don't know how the AP 299x32 compares but I imagine it isn't far off.
I just wanted to say that I have gotten replacement Stoptech 328x28 rotors for as cheap as $225 per rotor shipped with new hardware and thread locker to install them to the hats.
Source/link? PM me if it's not something to be shared publicly for whatever reason.
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Old 04-27-2016, 05:01 PM
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The comparison price should be $1525. Several online vendors are offering the 328x28 st40 kit for this price. Mind you I haven't been able to find replacement to G's cheaply.
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Old 04-27-2016, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by SlowTeg View Post
Good post imstimpy! Wheel offset is most certainly a concern for myself as well and something worth thinking about for others.
Wheel offset should definitely be a concern if you plan on running any BBK but the wheel offset specifics mentioned in that post are just not accurate. +55 is hardly the maximum offset possible on stock fenders. Unless you are running very soft springs or are one of those special snowflakes that can't bring themselves to roll the front fender lips flat then you can easily run 17x9 +49 with "large" 255 tires with no issues at all. Same goes for the 17x9.5 +47, or 17x9.5 +50 CEs that recently became available.

Not only that, running +55s with a square setup wheel up front and large grippy tires will definitely result in inner frame contact with the tire under heavy load, unless you are running very stiff springs.
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Old 04-28-2016, 01:15 AM
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Originally Posted by imstimpy View Post
Originally Posted by SakeBomb Garage' timestamp='1460502627' post='23936250
[quote name='DTP525' timestamp='1460465219' post='23935490']
What's the cost of replacement rotor rings on this 325mm set? The 299mm rotor rings were fairly priced making them a good option at the time.
$245 for the 325mm
$173 for the 299mm

The cost is a bit higher, but the service life is much longer. If I were to take a guess, back to back, you're still going to come out ahead with the larger discs as far as dollars per year per rotor. Apples for apples (299 vs 325) you're able to run a less aggressive pad as the rotor temps are lower, which will will be more gentle to discs and will create less micro-cracking in the rotor surface over time. Honestly I can't say for sure, but based on our disc-reorders from the FD 325mm kits, I'd bet the 325 is a better "bargain" if you look at ring replacement costs over an entire race season.
A couple things conversation points I'd like to bring up:
  • A quick search shows the 328x28 StopTech replacement ring is $300, so a great cost savings there. After a year of tracking and many autocrosses, I'm finally starting to see micro cracks on the StopTech rotor surface. I give them another six months before I will become concerned over their integrity. Even without front brake ducting, and the arguably more inefficient 328x28 rotor design, thermal dispersion and capacity are about right for the S2000. I don't know how the AP 299x32 compares but I imagine it isn't far off.
  • The smaller AP 299, as well as the StopTech 328, are both designed for stock rear bias. You've addressed the 325 bias issue this with your RX8 rear kit, but that is an added cost to be considered. I went with a vented rear to keep the bias the same. In either case, the rear isn't up to the task.
  • The StopTechs are relatively heavy compared to the competition, weighing 7-8lbs to the 5-6lbs of most other offerings; they are still 1-2lbs lighter than the OEM calipers. I myself have dealt with some minor design issues relating to the retention of some bolts, but even if they are Chinese junk they still fit perfectly, are durable, have rebuild parts readily available, do the job exactly as described, and are proven time and time again on track.
  • Assuming a purchase price of $3000 for an AP kit to the $2000 of the StopTech, factor in $100 per rotor price difference, and you are still looking at five sets of rings to make up the cost. **Obviously this math is bogus because it doesn't also account for pads and other variations in wear and tear.
  • StopTech uses 18mm pads, leaving only a 2mm discrepancy from some vendors. Some vendors do not offer the full 20mm pads and some vendors have limited selection or add a premium to the AP pads. Carbotech offers 20mm and similar pricing, Cobalt offers 16.5mm and a $50 premium listed by some pad fitment number, Hawk doesn't even list the 8350 as a supported caliper.
  • StopTech will fit under a select few 17x9+60ET wheels and most wheels spaced out to +55. Using a 17x9+63 Volk CE28N, the StopTech needs an 8mm spacer while the AP required a 15-18mm spacer. With upper offset bushings I'm ok with a +55 wheel under the front fender; anything more will eventually lead to fender damage. The AP caliper is not friendly to the extremely high offsets of the S2000.

I'm not against the AP kit at all. I consider it the highest end of braking solutions. In the end, it isn't so simple as AP is better than StopTech- they each have their pros and cons to be weighed against one another.
[/quote]

A few comments to your points:
-Your rotor ring replacement schedule will be significantly less with the 325x32 kit as it simply runs cooler, and you'll see less micro-cracking. The AP Racing metallurgy is also superior... it's less prone to cracking given the same temps. If you go to any competitive race event, you'll be hard pressed to find Stoptech rotors or calipers in attendance under anyone's wheels

-Added rear cost. We felt the rears were were so bad there were no ifs, ands, or buts about it... the stock rears have to go. The rear needs to be vented (and properly) to be what we would consider reasonable. I know everyone has been hacking along for years... it's honestly insane that no one bothered to do anything and common practice is just throw more pads, rotors, and new hubs at it. We felt given everything, if you've got to do it, the RX8 caliper is the most cost effective, and we worked really hard to make the rear kit in total was at its heart... cost effective. We assumed no one would remain complacent with the solid rears in the S2K for a performance scenario.

-Weight for weight, you mention the calipers are a few pounds heavier but lighter than stock. It's within stock range absolutely. Our AP setup is too... we're not claiming it's the lightest in town... this was done purposefully. Everything is a balance in the performance world... weight vs performance. This is where Stoptech falls short though... they have less mass/cooling capabilities in their rotor and more useless mass in the caliper... the AP is reversed, the mass is where it's needed, in the rotor (and they went far out of their way to shed every last ounce from the caliper). Apples for apples, I'd personally rather see that mass in the rotor keeping it running cooler vs wasted in a heavy caliper. We're also comparing different parts here... high temp seals, thin wall billet stainless pistons, 3lb anti-knockback springs are just a few of things missing from the feature list on the Stoptech. I don't know how else to put this, Stoptech has a great business model, sell sub-par Chinese made components at moderate prices. For a minimal price increase for the AP Racing parts you're getting way more tech dollar for dollar. If Stoptech made the same caliber parts, believe you me, we'd have pieced together a kit around Stoptech components . We are not AP... we decided to build our kit around their components because of their sophisticated engineering and standing in competitive motorsports.

-Assuming purchase prices... our pre-sale price on our SBG Designed Competition AP Racing setup is $2599!! http://www.sakebombgarage.com/ap-com...-system-s2000/ Yes, it's more expensive than Stoptech, we know. We've done our best to close the gap and bring you guys the best bang for buck. It's not glossy red, and doesn't have sophisticated marketing or fancy boxes... we make and sell genuinely honest racing kits. We're a tiny tiny company, vs a giant. I think we did pretty darn well considering the uphill battle. Something people don't realize here is we're not making money hand over fist trying to sell hundreds of brake kits to maximize profit, we're here to make THE BEST parts we possibly can for our car, and make these parts available to the racing community. It might look like "big business" to outsiders because the parts are expensive, but from the inside out, this is just honest engineering from a mom-and-pop race shop that cares about quality, not trying to make money hand over fist. We drive what we build.

-Pad selection. Hawk ABSOLUTELY makes pads for this caliper. Nearly every other pad manufacturer does as well. They should be a full 20mm deep from ALL manufacturers... if they're not, walk away. The Hawk pads for this caliper are DIRT CHEAP. Many factors went into deciding on a caliper and pad selection and cost was one of them. This is one of the most ubiquitous pad shapes in racing... we're still compiling a final list but have a very good one started. It's cheap and effective. You can also use two different radial pad heights (yes there are two pad heights for this caliper, 43mm pad height and a full 50mm pad height!!). Ferrodo, Endless, and others make this pad in both 43mm and 50mm. The 299 rotor accepts ONLY the 43mm pad height, but the 325mm rotor accepts the 50mm pad height (both 20mm deep). Bang for buck, swept area, torque, dollar per gram of pad material and dollar per rotor wear, I'd put this head to head with everything else out there with utmost confidence that it's not only more durable, but cheaper overall to run! We didn't go through all this trouble to make a brake kit to try to scam people... we use this stuff on our own S2K and FD's because it works and it's affordable to run.

-Wheel clearance. Again another reason we chose the 325mm... this rotor allows the caliper to sit further out radially. Wheel spokes typically allow more clearance between the caliper face as you get out towards the barrel. Yes this is a wide caliper to hold the extra brake pad depth and rotor width... will it fit all wheels, no. But lets not jump to conclusions, the kit hasn't even been officially released for sale yet, we're still taking pre-orders for it as we gear up to release. We've provided a wheel template but by no means is there any sort of general consensus that has formed as far as clearance. No, it will not fit all wheels. Neither will the 299 AP kit, neither will the Stoptech. We did our best to balance a multitude of parameters and wheel clearance was factored in. The reality is, some people WILL need to run spacers to fit. Some wheels will fit without spacers. There are lots of factors and we don't have a list for everyone's wheels... but we did do our best to maximize wheel fitment during the engineering process, and it was a high priority on our list.

In short, we feel that for what you're getting dollar for dollar our 325mm Competition AP Racing kit is very affordable, and provides much more than the AP setup for not a huge price hike. I can go on and on about the components being some of the best in this price range, and the SBG made components being made in the USA from Aerospace grade 2024-t356 heat stable hats for competitive Motorsports use blah blah blah . But China has us beat on this one... it's glossy red, has a huge marketing budget, and it's cheaper. But is it better? Dollar for dollar, once you strip away the red paint, are you really getting like for like?
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