SCCA Runoffs at Indy engine problems
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Joined: Nov 2010
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From: Cape Cod
SCCA Runoffs at Indy engine problems
I raced last weekend in EP at the SCCA runoffs at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway. It was quite an event and spent over a week in Indy. I started 32nd out of 45 cars and finished 23rd. I had to race on my old spare engine. Swapping engines in the 95 degree temps in Indy was no fun, but it was either swap or go home.
The engine that I built for the runoffs made about 20 hp more than my old engine. It would run great for a couple of laps, but then it would start dying out in right hand turns, of which there were many, It was not a misfire, but rather almost like it was shutting off. I have a Canton baffled pan (as does my old engine) and an Accusump. Looking at the data logs, I saw that the oil pressure would drop after a couple laps. Pressure started out in the 75 to 90 psi range, but after it warmed up it was in the 40 to 60 range. Cornering did not change the pressure. I was thinking that the pressure was too low to keep the vtec engaged. I have a Haltech ECU and I do not think it uses the oil pressure switch. in one practice session I pitted to disconnect the auxiliary sensors from the Haltech, in case there was a problem with the 5 volt system (had a shorted/melted wire once before that cased a similar symptom). I went back out for a lap and it ran great - figured that I found the problem, only to have it act up again in the next session. I was only in pit for about 2 minutes. I did not log the vtec engagement at that time, but I do that now, but it the pressure was too low to keep it all engaged, I don't know if it would log that anyway. I drained the oil and saw some metal in the oil, thus decided to pull the engine.
I finished the tear down today and found the bearings worn. Checked the clearances with Plastigage and found rod bearing clearances about 0.0015". Plastigage it not the most accurate, but it at least gives a measurement for now. The rod side clearances are in the 0.013 to 0.014" range with new Pauter rods. That clearance is at higher than the 0.012" max for a new engine, but still below the 0.016" service limit. I am wondering if that was the issue?
My question for you all, is what am I missing? Each engine had it's own vtec solenoid system , TCT and valve train (I did not swap them between engines). Engine harness was swapped between engines. I still need to take a closer look at the rocker arm system to see if there is anything missing, but the vtec engaged fine on dyno and for 2 laps of each practice session. Wondering if too much oil was winding up in the rocker cover and not in the pan, but puke cans were all good. No external oil leaks and engine was not consuming oil. Oil filter head, sandwich plate, and cooler were shared between engines.
Oil pump was a used pump. I checked clearances before installing it and it was all good. On tear down, the oil pump pressure relief valve looked good.
I know that rod bearing clearances are usually the cause of low oil pressure, but I want to make sure that I am not missing another issue. I am open to suggestions.
The engine that I built for the runoffs made about 20 hp more than my old engine. It would run great for a couple of laps, but then it would start dying out in right hand turns, of which there were many, It was not a misfire, but rather almost like it was shutting off. I have a Canton baffled pan (as does my old engine) and an Accusump. Looking at the data logs, I saw that the oil pressure would drop after a couple laps. Pressure started out in the 75 to 90 psi range, but after it warmed up it was in the 40 to 60 range. Cornering did not change the pressure. I was thinking that the pressure was too low to keep the vtec engaged. I have a Haltech ECU and I do not think it uses the oil pressure switch. in one practice session I pitted to disconnect the auxiliary sensors from the Haltech, in case there was a problem with the 5 volt system (had a shorted/melted wire once before that cased a similar symptom). I went back out for a lap and it ran great - figured that I found the problem, only to have it act up again in the next session. I was only in pit for about 2 minutes. I did not log the vtec engagement at that time, but I do that now, but it the pressure was too low to keep it all engaged, I don't know if it would log that anyway. I drained the oil and saw some metal in the oil, thus decided to pull the engine.
I finished the tear down today and found the bearings worn. Checked the clearances with Plastigage and found rod bearing clearances about 0.0015". Plastigage it not the most accurate, but it at least gives a measurement for now. The rod side clearances are in the 0.013 to 0.014" range with new Pauter rods. That clearance is at higher than the 0.012" max for a new engine, but still below the 0.016" service limit. I am wondering if that was the issue?
My question for you all, is what am I missing? Each engine had it's own vtec solenoid system , TCT and valve train (I did not swap them between engines). Engine harness was swapped between engines. I still need to take a closer look at the rocker arm system to see if there is anything missing, but the vtec engaged fine on dyno and for 2 laps of each practice session. Wondering if too much oil was winding up in the rocker cover and not in the pan, but puke cans were all good. No external oil leaks and engine was not consuming oil. Oil filter head, sandwich plate, and cooler were shared between engines.
Oil pump was a used pump. I checked clearances before installing it and it was all good. On tear down, the oil pump pressure relief valve looked good.
I know that rod bearing clearances are usually the cause of low oil pressure, but I want to make sure that I am not missing another issue. I am open to suggestions.
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 846
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I had a canton pan and after a season of datalogging pressures and temps against a OEM pan with a moroso weld in baffle i swapped back to the OEM pan with the weld in baffle, same pressure lower temps due to aluminum pan.
where are you pulling your pressure data relative to the accusump?
I would delete the accusump on the next motor.
Here is my logic:
Accusumps work great in a very specific situation, and that is if you have an insufficient pan baffle, in long corners it will keep the galleys full of oil, BUT as soon as pickup pressure rises above that of the accusump the accusump will actually take pressure away from the motor to refill itself. I have even seen extreme cases where a 3qt accusump fully discharges, and upon recharge starves the motor sufficiently to cause failure, however if you are taking your pressure readings adjacent to the accusump you will never actually see the pressure drop because of the accusump maintaining pressure at the measuring point.
Not saying that there may not have been some other issue, but after years of racing in lemons with an accusump (not S2000 obviously) it never actually saved a motor, usually just delayed the time it took to blow it up.
FWIW there is plenty of data supporting these cars being bulletproof on very sticky rubber with just a pan baffle and big radiator (no oil cooler).
where are you pulling your pressure data relative to the accusump?
I would delete the accusump on the next motor.
Here is my logic:
Accusumps work great in a very specific situation, and that is if you have an insufficient pan baffle, in long corners it will keep the galleys full of oil, BUT as soon as pickup pressure rises above that of the accusump the accusump will actually take pressure away from the motor to refill itself. I have even seen extreme cases where a 3qt accusump fully discharges, and upon recharge starves the motor sufficiently to cause failure, however if you are taking your pressure readings adjacent to the accusump you will never actually see the pressure drop because of the accusump maintaining pressure at the measuring point.
Not saying that there may not have been some other issue, but after years of racing in lemons with an accusump (not S2000 obviously) it never actually saved a motor, usually just delayed the time it took to blow it up.
FWIW there is plenty of data supporting these cars being bulletproof on very sticky rubber with just a pan baffle and big radiator (no oil cooler).
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 7,335
Likes: 109
Symptoms sound very similar to what killed my motor. At first it was right handers...felt like a wheel was rubbing on the chassis, eventually starting happening on top of 3rd. vtec coming in and out, car pretty much fell flat on its face around 140km/h. Ended up spinning #3 rod bearing. I like the weld in baffles, I would hate to loose the heat sink on the stock pan.
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 703
Likes: 101
I raced last weekend in EP at the SCCA runoffs at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway. It was quite an event and spent over a week in Indy. I started 32nd out of 45 cars and finished 23rd. I had to race on my old spare engine. Swapping engines in the 95 degree temps in Indy was no fun, but it was either swap or go home.
The engine that I built for the runoffs made about 20 hp more than my old engine. It would run great for a couple of laps, but then it would start dying out in right hand turns, of which there were many, It was not a misfire, but rather almost like it was shutting off. I have a Canton baffled pan (as does my old engine) and an Accusump. Looking at the data logs, I saw that the oil pressure would drop after a couple laps. Pressure started out in the 75 to 90 psi range, but after it warmed up it was in the 40 to 60 range. Cornering did not change the pressure. I was thinking that the pressure was too low to keep the vtec engaged. I have a Haltech ECU and I do not think it uses the oil pressure switch. in one practice session I pitted to disconnect the auxiliary sensors from the Haltech, in case there was a problem with the 5 volt system (had a shorted/melted wire once before that cased a similar symptom). I went back out for a lap and it ran great - figured that I found the problem, only to have it act up again in the next session. I was only in pit for about 2 minutes. I did not log the vtec engagement at that time, but I do that now, but it the pressure was too low to keep it all engaged, I don't know if it would log that anyway. I drained the oil and saw some metal in the oil, thus decided to pull the engine.
I finished the tear down today and found the bearings worn. Checked the clearances with Plastigage and found rod bearing clearances about 0.0015". Plastigage it not the most accurate, but it at least gives a measurement for now. The rod side clearances are in the 0.013 to 0.014" range with new Pauter rods. That clearance is at higher than the 0.012" max for a new engine, but still below the 0.016" service limit. I am wondering if that was the issue?
My question for you all, is what am I missing? Each engine had it's own vtec solenoid system , TCT and valve train (I did not swap them between engines). Engine harness was swapped between engines. I still need to take a closer look at the rocker arm system to see if there is anything missing, but the vtec engaged fine on dyno and for 2 laps of each practice session. Wondering if too much oil was winding up in the rocker cover and not in the pan, but puke cans were all good. No external oil leaks and engine was not consuming oil. Oil filter head, sandwich plate, and cooler were shared between engines.
Oil pump was a used pump. I checked clearances before installing it and it was all good. On tear down, the oil pump pressure relief valve looked good.
I know that rod bearing clearances are usually the cause of low oil pressure, but I want to make sure that I am not missing another issue. I am open to suggestions.
The engine that I built for the runoffs made about 20 hp more than my old engine. It would run great for a couple of laps, but then it would start dying out in right hand turns, of which there were many, It was not a misfire, but rather almost like it was shutting off. I have a Canton baffled pan (as does my old engine) and an Accusump. Looking at the data logs, I saw that the oil pressure would drop after a couple laps. Pressure started out in the 75 to 90 psi range, but after it warmed up it was in the 40 to 60 range. Cornering did not change the pressure. I was thinking that the pressure was too low to keep the vtec engaged. I have a Haltech ECU and I do not think it uses the oil pressure switch. in one practice session I pitted to disconnect the auxiliary sensors from the Haltech, in case there was a problem with the 5 volt system (had a shorted/melted wire once before that cased a similar symptom). I went back out for a lap and it ran great - figured that I found the problem, only to have it act up again in the next session. I was only in pit for about 2 minutes. I did not log the vtec engagement at that time, but I do that now, but it the pressure was too low to keep it all engaged, I don't know if it would log that anyway. I drained the oil and saw some metal in the oil, thus decided to pull the engine.
I finished the tear down today and found the bearings worn. Checked the clearances with Plastigage and found rod bearing clearances about 0.0015". Plastigage it not the most accurate, but it at least gives a measurement for now. The rod side clearances are in the 0.013 to 0.014" range with new Pauter rods. That clearance is at higher than the 0.012" max for a new engine, but still below the 0.016" service limit. I am wondering if that was the issue?
My question for you all, is what am I missing? Each engine had it's own vtec solenoid system , TCT and valve train (I did not swap them between engines). Engine harness was swapped between engines. I still need to take a closer look at the rocker arm system to see if there is anything missing, but the vtec engaged fine on dyno and for 2 laps of each practice session. Wondering if too much oil was winding up in the rocker cover and not in the pan, but puke cans were all good. No external oil leaks and engine was not consuming oil. Oil filter head, sandwich plate, and cooler were shared between engines.
Oil pump was a used pump. I checked clearances before installing it and it was all good. On tear down, the oil pump pressure relief valve looked good.
I know that rod bearing clearances are usually the cause of low oil pressure, but I want to make sure that I am not missing another issue. I am open to suggestions.
Joe,
The I had the exact symptoms you describe on my engine. It was a stock ECU F22 with Canton oil pan. It would run fine for the first few laps and but after that it wouldn't have any power as if there was no vtec being engaged. I tried to troubleshoot it over the course of 3 track days thinking it would have been fuel system related, sensors, etc. The motor went on its 3rd day on track climbing the esses at Watkins Glen. It wasn't pretty, it threw a rod right out the side of the block.
I have had a number of track S2000s and I think the perfect solution is just running the stock pan with no baffle. The stock system is an excellent design and the oil pick up is so low that unless you run low on oil, you would be very hard pressed to starve the engine for oil. The pick up tube is basically kissing the bottom of the stock pan.
Talking to a number of guys who track as well as InlinePro who did my engine, they have seen many engines fail with weld in baffles and both your car and mine had issues with the Canton pan.
I have not had an engine issues yet and all clean oil analysis running a stock pan and monitoring levels after every run.
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 703
Likes: 101
Joe,
The I had the exact symptoms you describe on my engine. It was a stock ECU F22 with Canton oil pan. It would run fine for the first few laps and but after that it wouldn't have any power as if there was no vtec being engaged. I tried to troubleshoot it over the course of 3 track days thinking it would have been fuel system related, sensors, etc. The motor went on its 3rd day on track climbing the esses at Watkins Glen. It wasn't pretty, it threw a rod right out the side of the block.
I have had a number of track S2000s and I think the perfect solution is just running the stock pan with no baffle. The stock system is an excellent design and the oil pick up is so low that unless you run low on oil, you would be very hard pressed to starve the engine for oil. The pick up tube is basically kissing the bottom of the stock pan.
Talking to a number of guys who track as well as InlinePro who did my engine, they have seen many engines fail with weld in baffles and both your car and mine had issues with the Canton pan.
I have not had an engine issues yet and all clean oil analysis running a stock pan and monitoring levels after every run.
The I had the exact symptoms you describe on my engine. It was a stock ECU F22 with Canton oil pan. It would run fine for the first few laps and but after that it wouldn't have any power as if there was no vtec being engaged. I tried to troubleshoot it over the course of 3 track days thinking it would have been fuel system related, sensors, etc. The motor went on its 3rd day on track climbing the esses at Watkins Glen. It wasn't pretty, it threw a rod right out the side of the block.
I have had a number of track S2000s and I think the perfect solution is just running the stock pan with no baffle. The stock system is an excellent design and the oil pick up is so low that unless you run low on oil, you would be very hard pressed to starve the engine for oil. The pick up tube is basically kissing the bottom of the stock pan.
Talking to a number of guys who track as well as InlinePro who did my engine, they have seen many engines fail with weld in baffles and both your car and mine had issues with the Canton pan.
I have not had an engine issues yet and all clean oil analysis running a stock pan and monitoring levels after every run.
Here is my thread when I blew mine, maybe it can help you.
https://www.s2ki.com/forums/s2000-ra...-glen-1157691/
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Joined: Apr 2005
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From: Scottsdale, Az
I'm starting to get paranoid reading this thread after a heavy day at Chuckwalla today.
When you say 'shut off' how long are you talking? Like a soft hiccup or soft feel of traction control intervening for less than a second when driving out of a longer corner hard?
When you say 'shut off' how long are you talking? Like a soft hiccup or soft feel of traction control intervening for less than a second when driving out of a longer corner hard?
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That reminds me of how mine felt the day it gave up. I felt it especially when coming out of the esses at Sonoma (WOT >80mph right hander) I would feel a momentary loss of power, not a full cut, definitely less than a second. If your motor isn't making funny sounds (mine did) take an oil sample and send it in before running it again. You may be able to catch it early, before doing damage.