Karcepts

I'm sorry, my point was to please not look too deeply into the Puhn calculations if you are using that to spec out an aftermarket sway bar. The Puhn numbers on the Karcepts bar are definitely misleading if comparing them to the other bars you have listed on the first page of this thread. It makes it look like the Karcepts bar is super stiff, but that is not the case. Puhn calcs assume the endlink is perfectly perpendicular to the bar and LCA mounting location on every hole position, which it never will be (unless you start re-positioning the fore/aft position of the sway bar on every hole change, along with other physically impossible dimensional changes that would need to happen). The stiffest hole on the Karcepts bar is the closest to the sway bar centerline compared to any other aftermarket bar we have measured. However, closer to the center also makes the endlink angle greater; in effect, losing some portion of angular twist throughout the travel. It's still more angular twist than other bars, but no where near the magnitude the Puhn method assumes since it is not perpendicular. Additionally, I have a few of the bars you list modeled up in my software to within a millimeter; so based off extremely accurate dimensions that I am using, the Puhn numbers I have calculated on these bars are much different than you have listed, so there are further inaccuracies here if using this data for comparison purposes.

I've provided the angular twist numbers which are a much more accurate gauge to compare hole for hole based off the same center section. The NASCAR style sway bar manufactures rate their bars at X lbs at X degrees of twist. I've given you the angular twist at 1" of shock travel... do some math! Joking though; as you do still need some other dimensional info to make this comparison. Honestly, I have only spent a little bit of time on this and am not totally confident in the accuracy of the numbers I am getting to answer your question in full. Theoretically, you *should* be in the ball park with your assumption. I need more time on this to state something I would stand by.

Long story short for people is you need to test. Grab a base setup, and go from there and tweak what is best for you.. If you are currently using a solid bar, maybe best to stay with a solid bar if deciding to try the Karcepts setup. Our arms were designed primarily for the quick adjust, less mass, a tick more stiffness on max holes, and yet a more even spread between holes for finer adjustment...

anamono

Just a bit confused here about how you're ordering the holes when comparing the angle of twist to the Puhn numbers. But isn't more twist angle = softer setting? The less twist angle you have, the stiffer the bar is? Or am I missing something? It's been a while since I've done a stress analysis problem

IntegraR0064

Just a bit confused here about how you're ordering the holes when comparing the angle of twist to the Puhn numbers. But isn't more twist angle = softer setting? The less twist angle you have, the stiffer the bar is? Or am I missing something? It's been a while since I've done a stress analysis problem
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If you assume the same center section, then no, more twist means more force on the endlinks. In order to get the same center section to twist more it takes more force, and if you're pushing with more force you're getting that force pushed back onto the control arm.

Karcepts

To clarify: Puhn numbers simply calculate the sway bar as a giant spring, on it's own, irrelevant to how the bar is affixed or functioning with a vehicle's suspension.

Do not try to compare angle of twist to Puhn numbers.

Here is a misconception about sway bars.. Some people assume when using the endlink hole position furthest from the bar center line (softer setting) the bar is softer primarily due to the sway bar arm itself flexing more than when using an endlink hole position that is closer to the bar center line (stiffer position)... as if the arm is flexing more because it is longer, and therefore weaker.. Do not think about sway bars in this way! The deflection or twist in the arms themselves should be viewed as negligible. There definitely is some portion of this going on, but more so in a light tubular single piece bar (like the OEM ones). But IMO, a properly designed 3 piece sway bar ARM should not be deflecting one bit throughout the adjustment range (or at least, very minimally). The center section itself is the primary flexing member on this style of sway bar.

The angular twist data I have provided is not something that is calculated. It is something that is measured. After modeling the S2000 front suspension geometry, I can simulate an amount of shock travel (1" in this case) and know precisely how many degrees that shock movement induced onto the center section. You can measure this in real life, but may be difficult to get super accurate numbers. The longer the sway bar arm becomes, the less amount of angular twist it applies to the center section for a given amount of suspension travel. It's purely geometry..

So if you try to twist a spring steel sway bar center section, what gives you more rate? Twisting it 1 degree at 1" of shock travel, or trying to twist it 5 degrees at 1" of shock travel?

Hope that makes sense..

anamono

Thanks for the clarification. I see how I was thinking about it backwards now. It's purely the geometry of it that forces the bar to a certain angle of twist. The higher that angle of twist is, the higher the force counteracting per unit of shock travel is.

iamxpl

And look what came in! Will have a full write up after install. Really cant say how impressed i am with the quality and service from Karcepts!

DaFastOne

really impressive pieces there.

matt96ex

Wow, I want one. Looks like a quality, well thought out piece.
S2ki pricing?

iamxpl

lets not discuss pricing here. I am no way affiliated with the company but you can email him directly and he is very responsive.

matt96ex

You're right. My apologies.