LOL...

Just starting problems, Bored here at work.

I am completely kidding. Auto-crossing is cool... Not quite as cool as track days, but still a lot of fun.

 

Hehe... "If autocrossing were any easier, they would call it road racing!"

Heard that quote before, and it's true. There have been many champion road-racers that have tried to autocross and struggled, yet many autocrossers (PD Cunningham, Neal Sapp, Jeff Altenburg, Shauna Marinus, Randy Pobst) have gone on to be accomplished road-racers.

I'm not saying it's easy to road-race - what I am saying is that most people at track days are not pushing their cars that hard. And when those people go to an autocross, they don't push their cars that hard either. I guess I am looking at it from an National competition level - driving National autocross events is intense, and requires amazingly high levels of focus.

What it boils down to is fun-factor, and most people just enjoy track days more - because there is more track time, the speeds are higher, etc. But for me, I enjoy autocross just as much because doing it right is so technical and challenging.

To each his own, but uhh... Krazik... You're opinion doesn't count here!

 

 

I guess my biggest issue with autox is that it puts cars in situations that they were not designed for - if that makes any sense??

Take the S2000 - you will probably never see an S2000 lift an inside-rear tire on a road course, but at an autox this problem happens very often and it hinders the car terribly with the LSD. The point is that autox will present challenges that you will never see on the street or a road course. That is why it is probably easier to go from autox to road racing, but may be difficult to pick up autox after road racing.

My driving style is also suited for road racing. I get more pleasure from driving fast than I do from hanging the tail out around 180 degree corners. Both are driving hard, but in different ways.

 

hey, you've never seen me parallel park, have you? <grins>

no, not hitting the curb either!

And in regards to the quote - I find its much more technical on the autox courses - but road racing, I'd prefer, but autox is a lot of fun too! Either way, you are out there learning the limits of the car as well as the limits of your own driving abilities.

 

I'd say you are more likely to be in a situation the car wasn't designed for at a given track day. As fast as our car is, Honda probably designed it to be driven on the street at street speeds in most cases (maybe a little faster). Sustained speeds of 90+, heavy braking, etc. don't seem to have much in common with the most typical use of the s2000, street driving.

Autocrossing, on the other hand, deals with advanced street conditions. I've driven roads that have maneuvers that are tighter and more demanding than those on autox courses (a certain 5MPH turn on a 55mph road that almost put me into a cornfield comes to mind). Autox allows us to let it all hang out in a safe environment, and improve our street skills. For example, State Farm gives a discount for autoxers, or at least they used to, because they recognize that it improves street skills.

As far as lifting the inside rear, that's not exactly a fair datum to use in judgement. Last year I autoxed all season, and didn't lift the tire once. I was competitive to boot. That behavior is due to a partial car setup, specifically big, sticky race tires on a sticky surface w/o corresponding shocks and sway bar. The stock setup, given the same inputs, will result in a spin, which you can see on a road course as well as an autox course. An effective setup, such as race tires, shocks and a sway bar will keep that inside rear on the ground.

There is an important distinction between competition and fun. Last year, I autoxed for fun. This year, while I'm having fun, I am doing my best to be competitive at a national level. This would be similar to someone who runs track days one year, then decides to go racing the next. Different modifications are made to increase the chance of winning. Team Threesome, for example (Jason, Juliann, and soloiiracer), have modified their exhaust, air filter, thermostat, front sway bar, and shocks. This doesn't include their trailer or the three sets of tires. That is pretty much maxxing out the equipment to give them the best chance of victory. Compare this to the King Motorsports car, or the Comptech car. None of those cars, imo, do what the Honda engineers designed the car to do. They are specialized application cars, not general sports cars.

I agree that both types of activities are lots of fun. However, I don't think that we can extrapolate what the Honda engineers wanted the car to be used for based on what little data we have, aside from the obvious: they wanted a quick, agile little roadster designed to go from turn to turn. It makes an, uhm, interesting drag car (no comment here on that), a fun car to take to the track, and a competitive autox car.


[Edited by RacerX on 03-13-2001 at 01:08 PM]

 

You make some valid points, Brad... but - I was just talking about the King S2000 last night with Bruce Foss, the road-racing product manager for Hoosier tire. While the S2000 may seem more suited to road racing, they were having the exact same problems on the track that we are having on the autocross course. They needed to bigger front bar (not allowed in T2) to keep the tail in line. Basically, when trying to get 10/10th out of the car it becomes very tricky to drive.

When you boil down to it, racing on tracks is basically a large scale autocross. And while there are different forces/reactions created by the different events - but the basic physics remain the same. In fact, when you watch qulifying at a road race (F1, Cart, World Challenge - whatever) they are THROWING the cars around and making the best of every corner. In a race, they are driving at 90-95% to save the tires and car, and they only turn it up when needed in a battle.

I guess what I am saying is that to win at an autocross requires you to go from standing around in grid to hopping in the car to clicking off a 10/10ths lap of a course you've only walked a couple times - while road racing doesn't require nearly as intense of a concentration level because you have time to work up to speed and be comfortable in what you are doing.

And make no mistake - driving a 10/10ths lap on a road-course is really REALLY intense, and it's also not easy. That's why I make the comment about RR-AX not working and AX-RR working. People coming from autocross are more used to squeezing 10/10ths out of the car. Just to be clear, I'm not insulting anyone saying this - but whatever you think you have done on the track has not been 10/10ths... even the best pro drivers struggle to get that out of a car. The difference in 'feeling' of an 8/10ths lap compared to 10/10ths is indescribable. While the former feels fast, exciting and fun - the latter feels downright scary. It involves pitching the car into slides at 100+ mph trying to judge where that slide will end, and target the exit curbing with that slide.

Also, many of you I'm sure have run either autocross or track runs that you go out of control or have 'moments'. This is because chances are you are driving 11/10ths somewhere and 5/10ths somewhere else. It's extremely diffcult to get 100% out of the car for an entire lap. (that's what every race driver spends his whole life chasing.)

I guess the reason I spent so much time writing this is that allot of people discout autocross because it doesn't seem as exciting or fast or challenging. I'm just trying to help people understand the reality of both - which can get very blurred by people's perception.

Let me frame this whole post by saying that my main goals are to eventually road-race professionally. But I know that autocross is a good stepping stone, and that I will use the driving and mental skills I'm developing. That and I get most of my enjoyment from the competitive side, rather than simply the driving aspect - I get bored circling a track all day. I want to compete against other drivers with similar skills, and be driven to excellence by the pursuit of victory.... but hey, that's just me!

 

Hey man, if you want to be a pro road racer, you better switch to karts (also known as small s2ks)!

 

To Jason's point, let me say that I was not putting down any auto-xer's. I have total respect for them and their abilities. I love to drive fast and that is what suits me. I may like autox if and when I try it.

 

Rich, I should qualify the 'road-race professionally' statement... first, I'm too big to be reasonably competitive in karts, which are the stepping stone to open-wheel race cars. Which I don't fit into either.

My goals lie in a form of professional racing where you still have to 'pay' in some ways. I'm talking about landing in Motorola Cup or Speedvision World Challenge - something like that. And my ultimate goal is to race endurance races like Daytona, ALMS series - and *gasp* dream to end all dreams, race at LeMans...

But most of the above series still require you to pay or 'rent' a ride - So when I say professional, I mean run in a pro-series... not necessarily get paid! But if I do ever get the chance, even though I'm paying it will be a big --->