[QUOTE=TRDLiquidSilver,May 2 2007, 06:53 PM]yes i agree to some degree but that's why people modify their cars to get the best solo2 times, or to reduce oversteer on a weekend mountain run, while driving within the utmost limits of the car to get the best out of it. i understand the thrill you get when you drive your S flawlessly but i'm pretty sure even if you drove your S as smooth and balanced as possible you would still be able to ring out few more tenths on your lap times with the correct modifications. the AP1 mistakes have been "exposed" as you put it and the engineers cameout out with the AP2. these slight suspension modifications doesn't hide a drivers mistakes that's what vsa is for. these modifications has enabled drivers to drive the S to the nth degree, which is all one can ask for in a sports car.

the AP2 suspension revisions would be akin to changes to a F1 car every year, where every year the car is different and supposedly better than the last. if the drivers complained about too much oversteer then its the job of the engineers to make sure that next years car doesn't have it.

 

I love these threads.... not! AP4 FTW!

 

great save there!

honestly though if i had an AP1 vs an AP2 i would still love the car as much and not more because its an S2000 for gods sake. i get more thrill driving my car than any of my co-workers cars and not because i have one. i still remember the first one i drove back in 2001 and if it wasn't for my wife affecting my decision in 2004 i would had one then instead of 06. in fact the only reason why i have it is because i heard all the rumours that 06 was the final year and i had to have it before they stopped making it.

 

OK guys, I want to respond to a number of your posts, because you all have either raised good points, asked good questions, or read too much into something I've said, but I'm going to have to get back to this later. Right now I have some errands to run.

Don't post too much til I get back or I'll NEVER catch up.

 

Well, I'm back, and I wanted to respond to your post first, because I so strongly agree. The S2000, any S2000, is a unique car, and we're all lucky to live in a time when we can own and enjoy them. That's why I don't see the comparison discussions as arguments. At the end of the day everybody agrees that the S2000's are great cars and that gives us more in common than there are differences in our cars.

 

Well, FWIW, I have said several times that the differences between the first and latest S2000's is actually quite small, and I'm not sure I can quantify the differences, becuase the changes all work together to produce a different set of characteristics; A different feel. Comparing the amount of steering wheel rotation and the rate at which the car rotates for a given turn in between an AP2 and an RX8 shows very small differences (TINY differences) but the cars feel totally different, because they produce the result in quite different ways. Small deltas are critical to the way a fine handlilng car feels.

The KAAZ is a perfect example of how small changes make a big difference in the cars handling and feel, but since I probably have more posts to respond to I'll wait until it's more germain.

As for the F1 analogy, I actually see the super quick turn in (which is one of the main things that attracted me to the car in the first place) as more of a benefit on low speed autocross courses. On the OEM tires the handling of the AP1 is so close to what I've always sought in my autocross cars that it almost feels like Honda designed the car just for that purpose. It took months of trial and error to get the same kind of turn in with the 9C1 Camaro we use to autocross, and we never got it with the X-1/9 (though with the X it might have been a bit too much).

Ask anyone who has every built a serious autocross car. When the handling is just perfect for the autocross course, the car is unstable (or far less stable) at speed. You'll never find another production car that has more bite on turn in than the MY00-01 AP1's, and that's a plus for aggressive drivers, AS LONG AS the oversteer is moderated as the car settles into the turn.

 

I already posted numbers. Both cars (AP1 and AP2) have turned 13.7's. The times from the magazines are not directly comparable, for the reasons I stated. Lip won't change that in any way. The best numbers we have are 13.7 for both cars. Do you have a problem with that?

 

The difference is that the AP2 suspension changes were in response to average American drivers complaining about the tricky handling characteristics of the AP1. Not F1 drivers...average American drivers.

The results definitely made the car easier to handle for those of us who do not have the last name of Schumacher.

But, in each of these discussions, I remind folks that the quickest s2k at every autox National Championship in which both cars have run has been an AP1. While the AP2 is faster for most of us...the best drivers seem to get more out of the AP1.

 

LOL, OK, I just realized that I referenced my Web site and the DragTimes links there, and I didn't think about the fact that some of the newer guys may not know the site address. You can find the links I referenced before at http://www.redmx5.net. The links are on the right side of the page. Click the links to go to DragTimes for more detials. If I recall correctly the 13.7 time turned by an AP1 was verified by a time slip and the 13.7 time turned by an AP2 was not, but the claim is not unreasonable given how close others have gotten to breaking 13.8 with AP2's.

The guys who want to put more faith in the magazine times need to explain why an MY03 car was slower than an MY01 car even though the MY03 is known to make more power. If the magazine times could be compared directly that could not happen. Temperature, altitude, and other things affect the results to the point that they result in a MEANINGLESS comparison. I explained this before, but apparently it is too much for some to comprehend, and I'll be damned if I'll explain it again. Those who haven't figured it out after two attempts will never get it.

 

Thank you!

As much as I'd like to include the facts about the way our cars have performed at the Solo Nationals, it's not a fair comparison, because all those cars are running R compound tires and have suspension mods to make the sticky tires work better. Still, your point must have some validity, because I've autocrossed both and am faster in an AP1 (with both cars stock and running OEM tires). However, I do know at least a couple people who have been faster in the AP2's than the were in the AP1, so I still think the driver makes a bigger difference than the changes to the car makes.

I also have to take exception to your use of the expression "the best drivers." On a tight autocross course, even guys like me can get more out of an AP1, and I'm certainly not one of the best. I lack the focus to be consistent. However, I would be VERY surprised to find anyone (including Schumacher) who is any smoother. My weakness lie elsewhere, and the AP1's play to my sterngths. (Does that make sense to anyone other than me? )

I guess what I'm trying to say is that when I'm on my game I'm pretty good, but it's a stretch to use terms like "best." Keith Code once embarassed me by telling a bunch of guys that I was in the top 2% of all sport bike riders, simply because I did ONE THING right that most apparently get wrong, and that kind of thing makes me very uncomfortable (because it's an overstatement that is at best misleading).

Since you're an autocrosser I think you can appreciate the following example of something very few cars can do. The PCA loves to put pivot cones in their courses. At their last event Chuck Beck showd up with his 908 prorotype, and watching him take the pivot cone in the 908 was awe inspiring. He'd put his left front tire up close to the pivot cone, then steer sharply and punch the throttle, with the result that the car would slide right around the cone and squirt off in the new direction. What really inspired me was that Beck is a great driver, and has a great car, and he and I were the only two people at the even who could gobble up the pivot cones so easily and effortlessly. Everyone else was cranking at the wheel and either fighting plow, or going around the cone so slowly that they were losing time. I know of NO other production car that will allow that kind of stunt, and while a good driver can get an AP2 to do the same thing, it's a hell of a lot easier in the AP1.