You have to keep the car to the right of the track along the edge under braking. Many people were 'crabbing' in off the edge while braking, or they weren't pointed in the right direction when they started braking. You almost had to turn the car to the right to be in the right braking line. By 'crabbing' in from the edge, you make it an early apex on T7, killing you for T8. The thing is, you have to late apex T7, which means continuing your turning longer than seems necessary. This puts your car way off to the left of the track on the exit of T7, because the exit of 7 blends so quickly into the turn-in for 8 (the right hand portion of the 'screw.) Basically, in the simplest terms, you want to take the straightest line through the corkscrew, which invloves a late-apex on T7, and an early apex on T8. It's blind, making things all the more difficult to get right. Practice makes perfect... this is one of the few places where GT3 seems pretty accurate.

Quote:

T9) A little weird and difficult to find the right line.

Yep... it's tough to know the right line as there aren't many reference points. You have to follow the rubber on the road. It's a long corner, and one where you can't turn-in too early. Many people were getting over to the left too soon, which pinches off your entry. Still other people were setting up too far to the right, which puts you off camber and keeps you from ever apexing properly. The right way is about 3/4 of the way to the right, and you carry that line until a certain vague point at which you turn in completely. Basically, instead of turning-in from a straight braking zone, you're turning in from a constant raduis arc. It's a bit hard to put into words... maybe someone (Kevin?) has some video that we can critique and help people visualize.

 

T7)
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jason Saini
The thing is, you have to late apex T7, which means continuing your turning longer than seems necessary.

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jason Saini
[B]
It's seems very painful sometimes to run the double apex, but if your car pushes allot, you might have to adjust your line.

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kevin_B
[B]

http://65.84.48.123/~kevin/turn2_example.mpg

As you can see by looking at my hands on the wheel, I'm making a smooth arc out of the turn too, just a much wider one than you are

 

Thanks Jason for an awesome post (and Thanks Josh for re-posting this!) This is one of the first times I've actually been able to follow through a detailed description like this and understand everything that was referred too! Unfortunately, understanding and being able to do it are two very different things. I hope I will get the chance to try these tips out next time! I was driving much slower than you all just trying to find the lines for most of the day. I could not for the life of me get T2 as a double apex and always did the single after I tried it the first few passes.
I should have taken alot more speed with me into T5. I improved quite a bit on T5, but I think the uphill made it deceiving so I never could bring myself to WOT until it was too late.
T6 was alot of fun once I realised how fast you could actually go into the turn with.
The corkscrew was a blast once you got the right line! getting used to doing it on instinct took a few sessions, but once you get it, it really feels great!
It wasnt until the end of the day that I truly felt the increase in speed and I was finally using all of the track to run out my turns.
Now I cant wait for another opportunity to try it again!

 

Alright, here's my lame drawing... but hopefully it gets the point across!



If you look at the drawing, the blue line is the double-apex line and the red is single. Point A is the turn-in point that I was using, and Point B is the turn-in point that Kevin and most single-apexers were using. Obviously, this drawing is an oversimplification and exxagerates the actual lines... but that's to make things clearer.

As you can see, the blue line has a constant radius, and a much wider radius than the red line. Most people think the red line is faster because it's a decreasing radius line. Decreasing radius lines feel better, because the car gets less stressed as you travel the arc. The blue line requires patience, because it's a constant radius. But because it's a constant radius which is a larger radius than the red line - you can carry more speed over the entire arc!

To execute this, it requires braking much earlier so that you can turn-in earlier. And it's hard to visualize the blue line on the pavement at the angle you approach the corner. But again, it's a classic case of slow-in/fast-out. When you do the double-apex line, you are doing a higher constant speed over a shorter distance. Of course, as Kevin stated some cars with a bad push can't be in steady-state for that long, so you have to square it off more. But - you probably could have compensated for that more by braking sooner so you could turn sooner. Then you just have to be patient with the throttle until you get to the 2nd apex.

One advanced technique I was using on the blue line was lifting just as I was between the two apexes. That allowed me to get back to the floor as I crossed the second apex. It was just a gentle lift maybe backing of only 1/2 inch on the pedal for less than a second... but it tucked the car into the second apex and gave me room to exit briskly and on the throtte. Basically from Point A in the drawing until that 'lift' point I was on an even throttle, just keeping the car balanced and at the limit. The tiny lift brought me away from the limit long enough to tuck the car so I could get back on the gas.

I hope my crude drawing helps people understand the approach I was teaching to T2... definitely one of the more challenging corners in road-racing!

 

Thanks for the description and drawing Jason. I'll definitely have to work harder on making that line work for me. What you're saying makes a lot of sense, especially when accompanied by a drawing. One thing I'm still a little confused about, after reviewing my video again, is how my hands were in a constant position through the turn yet I was making such a skewed arc. I guess the fact that I'm feeding in the throttle as I'm going through the turn is effectively widening my arc on exit. Hmmm...tricky. I'll let you know how the double apex works for me next time around. I have a feeling you'll be right, especially if I'm running R tires. That will surely help me get through on the blue line without the horrendous understeer I was suffering on Monday.

As for turn 9, these are the only two clips I have lying around. Example one shows the line I mentioned in my earlier post (although I don't track out far enough) and example two shows me going to the edge of the track, then immediately turning in. The second example seems quicker to me, but I was running both lines all day and was never sure which one to take. What's your opinion?

Example 1: http://65.84.48.123/~kevin/turn9_ex1.mpg

Example 2: http://65.84.48.123/~kevin/turn9_ex2.mpg

Thanks for the input. This was my third time at Laguna as well (my 16th drack day total), so getting as much input as possible from someone with your experience definitely helps!

Cheers,

Kevin
'00 M Coupe

 

It is very easy on a race track to get fooled by the shape of the corners. Just because a corner is 90 deg doesn't mean it's really 90 deg. you should generally follow the widest possible arc from outside to outside intersecting at the middle (apex). corners aren't really corners they are arcs of various radii. You see a really sharp 300 deg corner like that one and thing damn! I've got to nearly stop to make a turn that sharp. Really you need to look at how wide an arc can I draw to make the turn. Even a 360 deg corner is at least 60 ft wide arc from outside to outside.

Streets of willow has an excellent turn which is actually part of the skid pad. I say excellent because really it's not a corner but two bits of road the connect to a wide flat area. You can go out 200 ft if you wanted to or about 30 which is about right. It makes you think because there is no edge to follow and no "apex" to aim for. You just have in and out and nothing in between to distract you.

What you need to know is where does my arc start (in point), where does it end (out point) and how fast can I go within the radius of that arc. The location of the apex is sort of irrelevant it's just a point somewhere in the middle. If you get the entry speed and the turn in point right then the apex is is automatic and you really don't need to worry about it. When you enter the turn concentrate on getting to the right speed and turning in at the right point. Once you turn in look for your exit point not the apex. A corner is one single event not two. Where you apex will depend on where you turned in, you don't get there because you aimed for it.

If you are wide of the apex you blew the turn in. If you miss you exit point you blew the turn in. Just get to the right spot at the right speed and the rest should just happen on it's own.

My $0.02

 

A second thought. There are really two elements to going fast on a track. One is finding the fastest way around it (the line) the other is car control. If you are going to go to the track and attempt to find the line then you need to have the car control thing already sewn up. You need to be able to control your car at the limit for a sustained amount of time. Jason describes lifting a touch between the two apexes to tuck in a bit. That is car control and you absolutely require it. To find the line you need to be able to make your car dance to your tune. Without car control you can't have speed.

Car control is control not recovery. I can recover from a skid or a bit too much throttle but I still need help with car control. A professional driver can drive a car like a concert pianist can play the piano. You can't learn it from a textbook you need to go out and practise, often. Attend car control clinics, autocrosses and go to performance driving schools. Get on the track as often as you can. It must be studied. I'm not fast because I don't have the level of car control required to be so. I need to think about it and that makes me slow. A driver like Jason can probably control his car without giving it much thought and that makes him fast.

When you go to the track it's fine to know where the line is but what you really need to do is work on car control before you can actually drive it. Don't worry about the fastest line around the course. Think about keeping you car in control and working on becoming comfortable. There is a bit too much emphasis placed on being fast as the track. You need to be in control at the track first.

CONTROL = SPEED

The more control you have over your car the faster you can go. Stay in control. Don't worry about the line think about driving your car in comfort and in control. Your speed will naturally increase as you better your control.

Just thought I'd throw that in for the beginners and intermediates alike who just hear about "the line" like it's some kind of holy grail. The line is an advanced concept you will naturally seeks as you progress with car control. Jason can turn a lap 30 seconds faster than we can because he has control of his car, not because he knows some secret shortcut around the track that we dont. All those bobbles and spins were due to lack of control not because you were driving in the wrong direction.

 

Sounds like an interesting line. What exactly, other than more room for error, would the benefits of this route be if you weren't trying to protect your line? It seems like it would lead to a sharper "point" in teh curve mid-turn. Wouldn't that require you to slow down quite significantly and take longer to rotate the car when compared to Jason's suggested line? On a pure time basis, what will your line gain you and how? Thanks for indulging me, I'm very interested to any input y'all have. Its amazing how many different ways you can drive the same track and still get good results
A great point! I love that line at the end, it sooo true. Guilty as charged, but working on both. I'm still dabbing the brakes a touch coming into 4, but only for half a second. Getting on the throttle just before turn in would help me out here quite a bit, I think. The same thing helps me carry WAY more speed through the esses at Sears Point. Plant the throttle the whole way through, with just a little lift that ends before turn in. Its a bit unnerving at first, but in that case going slower actually gives you less stability while cornering. Takes a while to grow balls big enough to do stuff like that though

Posted this on this thread's "parent thread," but it relates directly to your comment, so I'll post it again:

http://homepage.mac.com/kbaillie/.Movies/L...turn4_slide.mpg

Just a small reminder of what can happen if you come into a high speed corner like 4 with your rear end unloaded.

Thanks for the comments and ideas! Now, this thread is an educational one!!!

Cheers,

Kevin
'00 M Coupe