could it be that the titanium shiftknobs are not real titanium?
02-26-2001, 11:01 AM
#1
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the reason why i'm asking is because i was chatting with my supplier, and he mentioned that the so called "titanium" shift knobs i'm trying to organize a GB for is JDM OE stuff, and he said there's no way these could be real titanium (material) at this kind of price. so i called up my machine shop and asked for a quote on the latest titanium prices (they fluctuate quite a bit), and for a block of real titanium to CNC mill out the knob with, it'll be in the neighborhood of $180, and that's buying 5 pcs of the material.
so i'm wondering, are the "titanium" shiftknobs real titanium in material? or are they just colored/coated that way? i have access to a spectrum scanner that will tell you if the material is aluminum (what grade), brass, copper, titanium, steel, etc. if anyone's interested in volunteering their "titanium" knob for a quick scan. i'm just curious to see if the stuff's real titanium, that's all.
so i'm wondering, are the "titanium" shiftknobs real titanium in material? or are they just colored/coated that way? i have access to a spectrum scanner that will tell you if the material is aluminum (what grade), brass, copper, titanium, steel, etc. if anyone's interested in volunteering their "titanium" knob for a quick scan. i'm just curious to see if the stuff's real titanium, that's all.
02-26-2001, 11:13 AM
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I've always thought the aluminum and titanium knobs looked the same. Then again, I've only seen the titanium knob in pictures. What's the benefit of the titanium knob? Looks/feels better?
02-26-2001, 11:29 AM
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Not volunteering but thanks for doing the research, Richard.
The Honda Ti and Al knobs are definitely different. The Ti one weighs about 250 grams. The Al one weighs about 150 grams. The Ti one is more "steely" looking and the Al one is duller.
Barry
[Edited by Barry WY Silver/Black '01 on 02-26-2001 at 12:56 PM]
The Honda Ti and Al knobs are definitely different. The Ti one weighs about 250 grams. The Al one weighs about 150 grams. The Ti one is more "steely" looking and the Al one is duller.
Barry
[Edited by Barry WY Silver/Black '01 on 02-26-2001 at 12:56 PM]
02-26-2001, 11:41 AM
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As Barry mentioned, the weight difference is the real tip-off. Ti is quite dense.
The price for a block of titanium is very dependent upon the alloy, and upon the source. Just look at the prices for titanium bicycles. Those made from domestic alloy tend to be quite a bit more expensive than those made from Russin alloys. I suspect the cheaper stuff might not be goof for high-stress applications (think, aerospace), but for a shifter knob (or even a bicycle), it's probably not an issue. (And, that's NOT to say that knobs such as the VooDoo are made from inferior grade - I have no idea where VooDoo Bob gets his material. I do know that his knobs are works of art, and well worth the $125 pricetag).
The price for a block of titanium is very dependent upon the alloy, and upon the source. Just look at the prices for titanium bicycles. Those made from domestic alloy tend to be quite a bit more expensive than those made from Russin alloys. I suspect the cheaper stuff might not be goof for high-stress applications (think, aerospace), but for a shifter knob (or even a bicycle), it's probably not an issue. (And, that's NOT to say that knobs such as the VooDoo are made from inferior grade - I have no idea where VooDoo Bob gets his material. I do know that his knobs are works of art, and well worth the $125 pricetag).
02-26-2001, 12:40 PM
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Its true that the grade of titanium will cause the price to vary wildly, but its the difficulity of cutting the titanium that is the real cost. 6Al-4V titanium is the one of the more difficult grades, but is unsurpassed for its stiffness and resilency. 3Al-2.5V comes next, and finally commercially pure (CP).
As for the use of titanium in bicycles, I don't think any group is more passionate about the quality of their titanium tubing than these guys.
As for the use of titanium in bicycles, I don't think any group is more passionate about the quality of their titanium tubing than these guys.
02-26-2001, 12:43 PM
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Mingster:
Two things. There are three major grades of Ti. CP, 3/2.5 and 6/4. These are 'commercially pure', and differing percentages of Aluminium and Vanadium if my memory serves right.
The price also is very very different for each alloy and presentation. CP being cheapest, and 6/4 generally the most expensive. Billet the cheapest, and Seamless tubes are generally the most expensive... and thus are the reason that bikes and golf clubs and fighter jets give the stuff the rep of being more expensive than gold. 6/4 seamless tube is almost impossible to make and commands a corresponding price. Almost all bikes are 3/2.5, and the few 6/4 bikes are usually welded tube. Dropouts and other billet fittings are usually all the 6/4 a bike ever sees.
CP in billet form should be fairly inexpensive... and the most appropriate for a shift knob since it has no strength requirement. I would bet anything that both the honda and the voodoo knobs are CP.
Last point... if you are going to have your Al knob and some donor's Ti knob analyzed, you should know that it will leave a burn mark on the metal. Furthermore, the anodizing on the Al knob and any finish on the TI knob will have to be sanded off of an area around the size of a dime. Maybe smaller, but not much. The analysis is done by 'sparking' the metal, and then analysing the colors of the light emitted. You will have to be very careful that your friend with the spectrometer do his analysis on the seat of the locknut, and also, that he clamp the knob carefully so that during the process the knob is not marred. Most spectrometers are set up to recieve standard size sample blanks so short of destroying the knob to make such a blank, it can be very tricky to get a spark on a non standard item... unless you have a relatively rare machine that is designed to do just that.
Regards,
Dan.
Two things. There are three major grades of Ti. CP, 3/2.5 and 6/4. These are 'commercially pure', and differing percentages of Aluminium and Vanadium if my memory serves right.
The price also is very very different for each alloy and presentation. CP being cheapest, and 6/4 generally the most expensive. Billet the cheapest, and Seamless tubes are generally the most expensive... and thus are the reason that bikes and golf clubs and fighter jets give the stuff the rep of being more expensive than gold. 6/4 seamless tube is almost impossible to make and commands a corresponding price. Almost all bikes are 3/2.5, and the few 6/4 bikes are usually welded tube. Dropouts and other billet fittings are usually all the 6/4 a bike ever sees.
CP in billet form should be fairly inexpensive... and the most appropriate for a shift knob since it has no strength requirement. I would bet anything that both the honda and the voodoo knobs are CP.
Last point... if you are going to have your Al knob and some donor's Ti knob analyzed, you should know that it will leave a burn mark on the metal. Furthermore, the anodizing on the Al knob and any finish on the TI knob will have to be sanded off of an area around the size of a dime. Maybe smaller, but not much. The analysis is done by 'sparking' the metal, and then analysing the colors of the light emitted. You will have to be very careful that your friend with the spectrometer do his analysis on the seat of the locknut, and also, that he clamp the knob carefully so that during the process the knob is not marred. Most spectrometers are set up to recieve standard size sample blanks so short of destroying the knob to make such a blank, it can be very tricky to get a spark on a non standard item... unless you have a relatively rare machine that is designed to do just that.
Regards,
Dan.
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02-26-2001, 12:51 PM
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I have both the titanium and the stock aluminum shift knobs. My roommate is a senior quality control inspector for an areospace parts manufacturer. He confirmed that the titanium was in fact titanium.
02-26-2001, 01:11 PM
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Originally posted by KenS2K
I have both the titanium and the stock aluminum shift knobs. My roommate is a senior quality control inspector for an areospace parts manufacturer. He confirmed that the titanium was in fact titanium.
I have both the titanium and the stock aluminum shift knobs. My roommate is a senior quality control inspector for an areospace parts manufacturer. He confirmed that the titanium was in fact titanium.