The Demise of Honda
08-09-2002, 10:08 AM
#21
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Some folks just dont read clearly...myself included.
I sympathize with Nobody's complaints as I , too, would like to see Honda get more "performance oriented", but the fact remains, Honda got to this point because of their ability to produce affordable practical cars (ie Accords and Civic's) Their Acura brand has extended their reach into the near luxury segment very successfully. No, we as enthusiasts may not be too excited about many of their cars, but we must keep in mind that it is those cars and the revenues that they help generate, that help pay for the R&D that Honda constantly does to refine and revise their cars. The consistancy of the quality and appearance across their productline, while bland to soome of us, helps them achieve the sales numbers they have.
The next few years will be challenging as Nissan, Toyota and others release a full line-up of revised cars with some great performance numbers, but with Honda releasing the new 240hp Accord this year and its spawns in the next two years, I see no demise coming. They have made great business decisions so far, and I see no major changes in the works that will threaten that.
Things to change? I woudl not change the way they design, select and build their cars , but I would hope that Honda of America, the US sales company, will clean up some of their dealers so that the consumers will get a better buying & service experience. I have been fortunate to have had great service from both Honda and Acura dealerships, but outside of the Bay Area, I hear of many nightmares. Maybe HMA needs to rotate its District Managers so that they can trouble shoot more without fear of pissing off a dealership for critisizing them. Improving the dealership service to the ustomers will greatly improve the overall Honda/Acura buying experience, which will translate into more repeat sales.
I sympathize with Nobody's complaints as I , too, would like to see Honda get more "performance oriented", but the fact remains, Honda got to this point because of their ability to produce affordable practical cars (ie Accords and Civic's) Their Acura brand has extended their reach into the near luxury segment very successfully. No, we as enthusiasts may not be too excited about many of their cars, but we must keep in mind that it is those cars and the revenues that they help generate, that help pay for the R&D that Honda constantly does to refine and revise their cars. The consistancy of the quality and appearance across their productline, while bland to soome of us, helps them achieve the sales numbers they have.
The next few years will be challenging as Nissan, Toyota and others release a full line-up of revised cars with some great performance numbers, but with Honda releasing the new 240hp Accord this year and its spawns in the next two years, I see no demise coming. They have made great business decisions so far, and I see no major changes in the works that will threaten that.
Things to change? I woudl not change the way they design, select and build their cars , but I would hope that Honda of America, the US sales company, will clean up some of their dealers so that the consumers will get a better buying & service experience. I have been fortunate to have had great service from both Honda and Acura dealerships, but outside of the Bay Area, I hear of many nightmares. Maybe HMA needs to rotate its District Managers so that they can trouble shoot more without fear of pissing off a dealership for critisizing them. Improving the dealership service to the ustomers will greatly improve the overall Honda/Acura buying experience, which will translate into more repeat sales.
08-09-2002, 10:44 AM
#22
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by djohnston
[B]
The decision to launch the Acura division of Honda in late 1986 was based on the assumption that the American market would not perceive Honda as a luxury or "upscale" vehicle.
[B]
The decision to launch the Acura division of Honda in late 1986 was based on the assumption that the American market would not perceive Honda as a luxury or "upscale" vehicle.
08-09-2002, 12:25 PM
#23
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http://www.hondanews.com/forms/corp/sales/...ruck_sales.html
Very interesting data.
Anyhow, one of the most interesting figures on the link above is that Honda sold more cars in 1990 than it did in 91, 92, 93, 94 or 95... But overall Honda marketshare and total sales have modestly increased.
Very interesting data.
Anyhow, one of the most interesting figures on the link above is that Honda sold more cars in 1990 than it did in 91, 92, 93, 94 or 95... But overall Honda marketshare and total sales have modestly increased.
08-09-2002, 01:46 PM
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I have this same conversation on a daily basis with Nobody. Basically, we are just trying to get Honda's attention and say "Hey...you're going the wrong way!"
I think overall the car industry is heading back in the right direction, 2003 is going to be a very exciting year for car enthusiasts on a moderate budget.
The overall idea that Nobody is trying to get across is that manufacturers need to realize that there IS a market for enthusiast cars. Bring us the Type-Rs...make them affordable...and you will sell many.
I used to be a die hard Honda guy and I discovered that forced induction was the key to my happiness. If Honda engineers would just get over themselves and slap a turbo on an S2000/Civic/RSX from the factory I'm sure we'd all be much happier campers. More torque Honda....more torque.
Considering Honda's dominating racing heritage one would think that they would carry this over into their production cars. I mean c'mon...what sells better than driving street a car that can be used to win races on the track? The RSX and new Si are a nice sign of things to come...but to me Honda has stipped away the grass roots feel of the 90's Honda cars. No longer do they they convey the "race car" feel of an 88-91 CRX. Rather we have a line of cars that takes away all road feel, much like the alimighty Cadillac. Now I realize that time are changing and people want more convenient features in their cars. But offer a completely stripped version of your "sports" cars with the best motors in them and sell them for $5000 less. People will want them...oh yes.
I think overall the car industry is heading back in the right direction, 2003 is going to be a very exciting year for car enthusiasts on a moderate budget.
The overall idea that Nobody is trying to get across is that manufacturers need to realize that there IS a market for enthusiast cars. Bring us the Type-Rs...make them affordable...and you will sell many.
I used to be a die hard Honda guy and I discovered that forced induction was the key to my happiness. If Honda engineers would just get over themselves and slap a turbo on an S2000/Civic/RSX from the factory I'm sure we'd all be much happier campers. More torque Honda....more torque.
Considering Honda's dominating racing heritage one would think that they would carry this over into their production cars. I mean c'mon...what sells better than driving street a car that can be used to win races on the track? The RSX and new Si are a nice sign of things to come...but to me Honda has stipped away the grass roots feel of the 90's Honda cars. No longer do they they convey the "race car" feel of an 88-91 CRX. Rather we have a line of cars that takes away all road feel, much like the alimighty Cadillac. Now I realize that time are changing and people want more convenient features in their cars. But offer a completely stripped version of your "sports" cars with the best motors in them and sell them for $5000 less. People will want them...oh yes.
08-09-2002, 02:10 PM
#25
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I agree with "Nobody's" post. Until the S2000 came out, I had no interest in going to a Honda dealership (especially when they discontinued the CRX Si). For the most part, Honda is bland, uninspiring and has a piss poor customer service attitude. The s2000 breaks away from the typical Honda scheme however. I am still a little angry though, that MR2 owners can spruce up their performance with TRD components and not lose there warranty while, if we so much as add a CAI, our warranties will be void. Honda does not have a progressive view on the car buying public. They have settled into their former marketing campaign of "Honda sells itself". I agree with "Nobody" that if they don't change their mentallity soon, they WILL take a back seat to Toyota and Nissan.
08-09-2002, 05:11 PM
#28
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When speaking about bigger tires and more g's and turbos you are only speaking about a small percentage of S2k owners. Most people rarely visit the red line or take a corkscrew at maximum possible speed. For the strip your car needs to be different than my car which will take me back and forth to work everyday while not making me loose my hearing! Honda's restyling is somewhat bland. But, you are getting a 32000 dollar sportscar that competes with 50000 dollar sports cars. (and wins) Not just on the street or strip but in the overall package. They need to bring over some goodies that they have oversees, but federal regulations means they would have to comply with crash testing, Low emissions vehicle, and other standards which keep the performance down but keeps the liveability of the car up.
We have 2 Hondas now and soon will be getting an '03 S2k. I can easily afford one but not a boxter s at 50000! Thanks Honda for giving some of us "sports car purist" a great car!
We have 2 Hondas now and soon will be getting an '03 S2k. I can easily afford one but not a boxter s at 50000! Thanks Honda for giving some of us "sports car purist" a great car!
08-09-2002, 05:22 PM
#29
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I love these armchair critics of Honda engineering.
Automobile engineering is driven by design priorites. Honda has an almost totally different philosophy, one that empahsizes efficiency, value, light weight, and environmental friendliness.
If you want a gas guzzling, overweight, high torque, polluting bomb designed for those dedicated to conspicuous consumption and in possession of a wretched excess of testosterone, there are many choices to satisfy your needs. None of them happen to be Hondas, thank God.
Honda will be thriving in the years ahead, when many other manufacturers have choked on the phlegm of the social and economic virus their selfishness has created.
Automobile engineering is driven by design priorites. Honda has an almost totally different philosophy, one that empahsizes efficiency, value, light weight, and environmental friendliness.
If you want a gas guzzling, overweight, high torque, polluting bomb designed for those dedicated to conspicuous consumption and in possession of a wretched excess of testosterone, there are many choices to satisfy your needs. None of them happen to be Hondas, thank God.
Honda will be thriving in the years ahead, when many other manufacturers have choked on the phlegm of the social and economic virus their selfishness has created.
08-09-2002, 05:28 PM
#30
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nobody
[B]I'm a die hard S2000 supporter....but when it comes to other Honda (Acura) vehicles, I have a difficult time defending their product and engineering decisions...Honda seems to concentrate and put more emphasis on what a vehicle IS rather than what it DOES--120 hp per liter is more important than total hp; forced induction is considered an engineering failure; .9gs on 205/225s is more interesting to them from a theoretical standpoint than 1.01 gs on 245/285 tires, etc.
The WRX is already a clear sign of what is possible when purist theory and styling take a back seat to physics and demand for performance.
Other gripes:
Honda refuses to bring the Type R Civic Hatchback because it will hurt the (flagging) sales of the RSX.
[B]I'm a die hard S2000 supporter....but when it comes to other Honda (Acura) vehicles, I have a difficult time defending their product and engineering decisions...Honda seems to concentrate and put more emphasis on what a vehicle IS rather than what it DOES--120 hp per liter is more important than total hp; forced induction is considered an engineering failure; .9gs on 205/225s is more interesting to them from a theoretical standpoint than 1.01 gs on 245/285 tires, etc.
The WRX is already a clear sign of what is possible when purist theory and styling take a back seat to physics and demand for performance.
Other gripes:
Honda refuses to bring the Type R Civic Hatchback because it will hurt the (flagging) sales of the RSX.