[QUOTE]Originally posted by jschmidt
[B]OK so we agree about the definition of the problem. There are also some rumours that Honda does too. Seems like we're now arguing:[list=1]
[*]Whether this is a problem or a necessary design feature.
[*]Whether it is because of the tires or another reason (your mid-engine explanation maybe)
[*]Whether this design choice makes the car faster or slower
[*]Whether the crappy driver label sticks.[/list=1] Don't know the answer to all of these questions but I have an idea:[list=1]
[*]Other tires don't need this lack of feedback to be good, sticky high performance tires. This includes regular S-02s, S-03s and some

 

What about the .9g? What other cars pull these g's?

 

I think jschmidt meant that Honda may have played with the S02 tire in order to reach that .9g number. Perhaps...but I'm wondering how that would be bad? In otherwords, if they found a suspension/tire combo that can reach that number, what would the downside be? The only thing I can think of is that they would have had a more "race" setup, instead of a typical "street" setup. That would be in line with people expecting typical street performance instead of the more race performance the stock S2000 provides. I don't consider this to be a "bad" thing, but maybe the average purchaser does? (I consider it to be good.)

 

Usually, as handling limits are increased, the warning/ability to respond once past that limit is diminished, whether you're talking S2000's, cars in general, or bikes. Other tires may give perceived better feedback b/c they break loose at lower speeds when it's easier to correct.

I have a reputation among my friends for churning through cars and bikes, but plan on keeping my S2000 indefinitely. Why? Compared to most vehicles I've owned, it's like being in a relationship. It wasn't easy to extract its true performance potential at first, but I find myself driving it better and better as I discover its unique characteristics. Thus, what some consider unforgiving handling characterics constitutes character from my perspective.

 

Thanks for your thoughtful on-topic response. I think there are a few possible negatives in this particular case: poor performance in wet, poor performance when cold, and poor feedback when at the limit. The tread is widened, the grooves narrowed, the compound softer and quicker to stiffen when cold. All of this fits together very logically.

.9g is a great skidpad number. Several cars meet or approach 1g now. I don't think any of the others have this same condition (not problem?).

Clearly the car handles great in controlled conditions (like a skidpad). Because of these particular compromises in design though, one might have to routinely drive the car with more of a safety margin, actually making it slower.

As to the general race car argument, there is perhaps nothing more poorly designed for road use. The idea is to approach race characteristics and retain roadworthiness. I'd suggest that some of you try a different tire. You might be surprised. Even if you're not, you'll at least be able to see what I'm talking about.

 

It snowed the day after I bought my S back in PA, I got up to about 2 or 3 mph in the parking lot when my back end came rolling past me - 0.9g - I don't think so Honda wu hu hu hu!!!!!

Joel

 

I have been driving my S2000 for 2 years and have no complaints with it's roadworthiness. So have many others so perhaps it is not the car or the tires that is the problem but the individual driving styles of the owners. Some styles are just not good matches to the characteristics of the S2000.

Excellent point. The higher the speed you lose it the quicker you have to make all the right moves and the subtler those moves have to be to have a chance of bringing it back. That is a tall order for most drivers.

 

Beig -- Obviously, you must think you are a pretty good driver. If you are ever down here I'll let you drive my car. I doubt that any experienced driver would be unable to notice the similarity in performance at the limit AND the increased feedback. Then you and I can take a little run in our own cars.

There are plenty of 10/10ths drivers on this board that aren't using stock tires and can walk away from most everyone else. With maybe two exceptions, I don't believe anyone who's tried another high performance tire combination still believes in the OEM S-02 msytique. They are sticky tires. Perhaps (perhaps) they are a little better. They are certainly not remarkably better. OEM equipped cars consistently don't stand out on runs. Other top of the line tire fitments consistently don't fall behind.

Given that they don't stand out in the real world, the compromises they require just aren't justified. Repeating over and over that good drivers like the tires and crappy drivers don't does little to move this topic forward.

 

well surprise, surprise... Bieg is back! I for one am glad to read it.

As far as tires, I for one believe the S02 that honda put on this car is an excellent choice. The life may be short for a daily driver but performance to me has been excellent and very confidence inspiring. I realised early on they would hydroplane and drove accordingly. After breakin and initial trial and error I started learning the car's limits. Also learning the pitfalls in the process. I found I could drift the car at will on some roads and have it snap-oversteer on others. The difference being road surface. A greasy asphalt surface would produce problems in a hurry. I watched 20+ cars go onto the track in our 1st track day... several spun very early on. Others did not. Why? Some experimented with grip before the tires were warm. 30 min. later most cars were taking corners at unbelievable speeds. And trust me the tires were noisey.

I now have Kuhmo's on my car... why? I decided to wait for the findings on the S03's before buying them. What I discovered is that while the kuhmos cost half at much... they are half the tire in the dry and twice the tire in the rain. Since the car is currently more daily driver than track car currently... it is a good choice. However I have much less confidence in the car and tires with the kuhmos vs. the S-02's!!

So all you people that want a lesser tire... get one, maybe you will be more confident with lesser limits. I am not, just rational about them.

Honda, thanks for every choice you made... well maybe not the plastic rear window.

 

Exactly the point I was trying to make; not all drivers are going to be happy with the OEM tires, just like many want more HP or leather console covers. I intend to try different tires when these wear out; hopefully I will have the money for a set of wheels as well so that I can have a good all-around tire and a great track tire. (of course, then I need a trailer, a pickup, and ...)

Getting back on topic, I think that if Honda had gone with a lesser tire this would not be an issue, as those trying to push the car hard would have been forced to upgrade to better tires of their own choosing. Perhaps such a downgrade on Honda's part is the best solution?