If you already went to the district manager and failed and if honda writes it up as caused by a collision with a rock you should be covered under your insurance. You do have collision coverage right?

If your ins. co refuses to pay then its simple but you will need to go to court. First I would bring a Petition for a declaratory judgement to contest the insurers dislaimer, this is fairly simple and you could use the Honda paperwork to move for summary judgment. If the Court finds coverage - you win. If the court finds no coverage it gets more complicated. You must then start a lawsuit naming honda (both the dealer and AH) and be ready with proof from a competent mechanic that it is a honda product design or manufacturing defect.

The way I see it this is a fairly simple insurance matter if there really is filter damage that appears like its from an impact.

Something does not sound quite right in this story.

 

Indeed, the filter is the key here. While not absolutely impossible, the chances of something having the velocity, the hardness/sharpness and the trajectory to puncture the oil filter is very, very small. Take a spare filter and a screwdriver and see how hard you have to hit it to puncture it, it isn't easy. Somethign would have had to bounce under the front bumper and belly pan, ricochet up, miss the engine mount and hit the filter with enough force to put a hole in it.

The dealer, seeing the hole in the filter, should have called you immediately and not removed anything. That way you could at least see where the hole was relative to the filter's position. If the filter has been removed and engine been messed with, get very suspicious and prepare to fight. As others have stated, there should have been a warning light, the smell of oil, etc. This sounds like the #4 issue to me as well.

UL

 

Thanks for all the input.
Looks like I play the stubborn arse tomorrow.

I'll be sure to keep to date throughout the day.

Chris

 

Dear Chris,
First of all, I am almost positive you have a typical #4 cylinder problem and the damaged oil filter is b.s. Here's why.

First you heard the tap-tap-tap that is the typical first warning of a failing #4 cylinder.

The same day, the Saturday in March, when you heard the tapping, you checked the oil and it was fine.

You made an appointment to see the dealer. Then, when driving to the dealer, the engine seized.

If the oil filter leaked oil before Sunday to cause the engine to seize, you would have seen oil in the garage.

If the oil filter became punctured on Sunday just before the engine seized, you would have heard a violent bang as some object hit the filter.

If the oil filter never was struck but failed anyway from manufacturing defect leading to catastrophic loss of oil, the oil light should have come on. Also, the oil filter manufacturer AHM would be responsible for making a defective oil filter and for designing a defective low oil warning system.

Many but not all of the engines with #4 cylinder failure have had low oil at the time they were diagnosed. Honda has blamed the owners for not checking the oil level and letting low oil cause the failure. However, an alternative theory is that the failed cylinder skirt/piston rings have allowed oil from the crankcase to blow past the rings and be combusted. Thus, you don't see the missing oil anywhere, but it is consumed due to the failure in the piston/cylinder seal.

If Honda knows what has caused the other eight #4 cylinder failures (or presumed #4 cylinder failures), perhaps a blocked oil channel, perhaps a batch of bad castings, perhaps some change in the design or manufacture of the cylinders or pistons, then AHM could check your VIN# and engine serial number to see if you got one of the failure prone engines.

Until the dealer proves to you that the "damaged oil filter" caused a catastrophic loss of oil, don't believe it. If it was damaged, they should be able to determine what caused the damage (gravel, screwdriver from a mechanic trying to retreive the lost oil cap?, stray bullet from the JFK assassination--whatever) from the scrapings surrounding the hole. Utah_S2K on the board has a lot of knowledge and might be helpful here.

Also you or a representative (parent, attorney, best-friend) ought to look at the filter and the streaks of oil going back from the car.

Also, your representative ought to talk to the person who either checked the dipstick or drained the oil from your engine to determine how much oil was in it when the engine seized. It is too bad you didn't think to do that before you had it towed.

Also, your representative ought to observe the four spark plugs. If the engine seized from low oil due to catastrophic loss through a hole in the oil filter, the spark plugs ought to be clean. If the engine seized from low oil due to a cylinder skirt/piston ring failure in one of the cylinders, then that cylinder's plug should be blackened from combusting oil/gasoline mixture while the other three spark plugs should be clean.

By the way, perhaps the damage to the oil filter happened during the towing and had nothing to do with the seizure. Ask the tow company whether that might be a possibility. Just because the oil filter was damaged, doesn't mean that the damaged filter caused the supposed (undocumented) oil loss or the engine seizure.

Cutting to the chase and all the b.s. aside. You had full oil on Saturday. Your car developed the tell-tale tap-tap-tap sound--a sound I dread hearing every time I start up my S2000. You called the dealer and arranged for service. Your engine seized.

I think the oil filler cap stuff and the supposedly damaged oil filter are all peripheral. Maybe they're related in that maybe a mechanic damaged the filter trying to retreive the cap.

You can bet on this. If the filter was damaged by impact rather than through manufacturing defect, it would have taken a lot of force and made a lot of noise. Or it could have been damaged by the tow company AFTER the engine seized.

Now, I'm going to presume that AHM accepts responsibility for this and offers you a short block replacement. If they do that, if they repair your car, then you will be back to 100% except for the loss of use for a month. If you ask, you might find that they compensate you for that too with perhaps a loaner or an extended drive train warranty or a discount on a Honda Care Warranty.

HERE'S A QUESTION FOR EVERYONE! WTF DO THEY EVEN PUT AN OIL WARNING LIGHT IN THE S2000 FOR? It seems that at least seven and perhaps more board members have had oil down at least two quarts without any warning light.

Has anyone ever seen the oil light come on except after just changing the oil??????????????????


Write me or call me if I can help.

private mail me for phone numbers.

Barry...a pediatrician and NOT a car guru.


[Edited by Barry WY Silver/Black '01 on 03-26-2001 at 07:29 PM]

 

For Barry:

I believe that oil warning light only comes on if the oil pressure drops to less than 2 or 3 psi. I'm not sure of the number exactly. You have to have next to no oil or a bad pump to make the light come on and if it does it's usually too late.

cde:

Good luck with AHM. In my opinion the filter story sounds like garbage.

 

cde: terrible to hear that about your car. i had the same oil cap problem myself. the cap unscrewed itself, and i heard a rattling. i immediately took it to honda the next day. when we popped the hood, i noticed the oil cap was off the vehicle. i told them i was hearing a rattling from the tranny, so they filled the oil back up to spec, put on a temporary oil cap and put it on the rack. they pulled down the tranny and found the original oil cap. they reinstalled the original oil cap and cleaned up my engine. that happened within the first 6 weeks of ownership back in October of '00. i have not had the problem you are now describing -- but i haven't had the car as long as you have (which makes me nervous). i can, however, say this: i only let the honda dealership perform all service with the sole exception of tires. the same honda dealership i bought the car from does everything else including oil changes, which makes them liable for everything, and hence they don't try to screw me. do you have proof of the oil cap incident? you should try to point back to that. who did your last oil change? was it honda?

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Skarv
[B]finally, If they "Can't find" the filter... then they will be getting a call from the INSURANCE COMPANY's lawyer asking about losing evidence.

 

Get your lawyer to take custody of the oil filter immediately! Make sure that your lawyer takes the filter from the hand of the guy who removes it from your car. Then there will be less of an issue of chain of custody.

Oh, BTW, first thing, get a lawyer.

Good luck and sorry to hear about the loss of your beautiful F20C.

2x6spds

 

Today's updates:
From the car insurance (USAA) rep.: he will be looking at the car next Monday.

From the service manager at david Michael: 1)the Honda district service manager will be looking at the car sometime this week; 2)he has called over to Academy Honda (original dealer and where the oil change was done), left a vague message (no reference to any engine problem), but no response; and 3)he still has the oil filter and no work was done to the car

question: where exactly is the oil filter, could it have been damaged from the flatbed tow truck, cleanance is minimal while loading and unloading (my front under-spoiler did get scraped).

I'll continue to keep you updated as I do more research. I'll be going to look at the car either Friday night or Saturday morning. Thanks for all the good advice.

I will call BBB's autoline and the district service manager later today.

Chris

 

Judging from my Autoart model, the oil filter is a blue cylinder on the front, right, lower quadrant of the engine, above the oil pan, and visible from underneath the car. I don't think it would be easy to damage it while flat-bedding unless something stuck up. The bracing and oil pan protect it.

Of course, this added oil filter protection would be another advantage of the Spoon X-Brace.

We're all rooting for you, Chris.

Barry