ultimate lurker

mingster - the cost would probably be the purchase of a spare cylinder head ($1000, $2000?). A good porter would probably work a deal where we purcahse the head and he does the development work gratis. He ends up with the knowledge on how to make this head work (meaning he's ahead of the curve) without any capital outlay and we don't have to risk being the first. We could probably work out a deal for discounted rates too once the development is done.

mdgrippa - if they've really done this already, ask them for a name of the owner who had it done, ask to see dyno sheets and ask to see flow bench data. Neither one is proof on it's own (the flow bench does not tell you everything), but together they should give you a good idea. If you can drive the car, even better.

everyone else - the head can be improved. It isn't hand ported from the factory. And I've never seen a factory head that couldn't be improved - and that includes the Integra Type-R head. There is a legitimate 15-20 hp to be gained from porting the heaad and manifold on that engine and it does have some minor hand work done from the factory. I suspect that at least 10 hp could be gained on the F20C head, but there is only one way to find out.

Another comparison. There are B18C engines out there producing up to 15-20 more lbs-ft of mid-range torque than the F20C at the wheels. And these engines are able to match or exceed the high cam torque curve of the F20C as well. All this and the F20C is more than 11% bigger and more advanced.

In the end, the real decision comes down to this. How much will it cost and how big will the gains be? There will be some gains and it will cost some money - its just the ratio that matters. The only issue for me right now is who to go to. I'd prefer someone local to the SoCal area so we could document and observe the research. But I don't know anyone around here with the proper equipment and the reputation I'd want if I'm going to give them a head.

UL

lvs2k

Go for it, mdigrappa; it's your car and your nickel. You break ground on this and let us know the glowing results. I'd like to see before and after dyno results before undertaking this mod, because it's very easy to toss around performance-gain figures without any valid documentation.

2x6spds

Hi Ultimate Lurker and all

Dan Paramore Racing (DPR), they're in SoCal. They have a rep for head work.

http://www.dpr-racing.com/

2x6spds

ultimate lurker

Yeah, Dan did a head for me about 5 years ago and did a nice job. As I understand it, he's just moved into a new shop though (his business underwent a "reorganization") and doesn't have a flow bench in yet. He knows the ins and outs of the B-series, etc., but hasn't done an F20C yet. _When_ he gets a flow bench, I'd certainly consider using him.

UL

Utah S2K

Hey Mark..
I wouldn't due a regrind as previous posters have noted. The S2K shaft is hollow....and very high strength (250+KSI on one I checked in Idaho). Regrinding will basically induce undue stress unless done under EXTREMELY controlled conditions (read this as failure to control the post grind bake process can result in stress corrosion cracking or hydrogen embrittlement-fatigue failure modes induced!). Don't know the house your referring to but be careful and assure they understand ALL about stress relieving high stregth steels.

P.S. If you finished all the references on torque I sent you I have a library on stress relief also.

Bob

mdigrappa

Well, I think I will do it, and use the ground cams until I get the Spoon ones or the Toda ones. Dyno testing does no good for numbers as I live at 6000 feet, and to get a true gain comparison on a mod that makes the car breathe better NA I would have to be at sea level. Wether or not the car runs better remains to be seen, but I am willing to take the risk, because worst case I have to get a new head, and the potential reward far out weighs the risk IMHO.
Thanks for all of the great info!

BTW Bob, I love all of the info you send, more than I ever will need, but I absorb every bit! THANKS!!

GTRPower

Hey guys...

You guys are scaring me. This is starting to look like a Civic board.

Dan Paramore and Bill Gude are about the same level, in my opinion. I haven't seen anything from them that really truly works- just alot of arm waving and hype.

DPR tried to tune the Signal chop top Civic a while ago- the best he could get out of that car was a 14 second run. John (I forgot his last name), formerly of HKS and Fastrax Turbos got ahold of it and tuned into a 9 second racecar within a couple of weeks. It's now an 8 second car. Judging by his headwork, I would be surprised if he really knew how a flowbench worked.

Bullfrog has been around for a long time. I haven't seen a Bullfrog package run reliably in the Chicago area- ever. I'll give him this- he does try though.

You have a $33K car. Look for someone who has experience in it, not some $15K hot hatches.

2x6spds

Hi GTRP

Thanks for the reviews/warnings about DPR and Gude. Comptech certainly has a complete machine shop and I suppose they have a flow bench. The idea of massaging the heads to get another 20 or so NA RWHP is appealing. The idea of letting some slob start shaving precious metal is appalling.

2x6spds

ultimate lurker

mdgrippa, whatever altitude you're at, dynoing will give before and after results. And you can do a lot more damage than just needing a new head, especially with the wrong cam. You could end up needing a whole new bottom end too.

Nick, Dan does know what he's doing. Before I had him do my head I checked him out. Perused a couple of B18Cs he'd done before and found out he used to work for TRD on projects like the GTP cars. He also had some people in there that had worked for Cosworth, etc. (that guy is now at Portflow). Before and after I picked up 20 hp with the cylinder head/intake manifold porting and a throttle body. My head was flow bench tested (we saw airflow gains of about 30% at .450" lift and nice gains at low lift too) and cc'd.

The Signal Auto project was a joke. Those guys wanted to run at the battle and that was not part of the original deal. They were told it wouldn't run well but they wanted to take it out without a shakedown. Always 3 sides to a story :-) Besides, dan's a head porter, I wouldn't have him _tune_ my engine (but he had some good people doing that stuff).

The whole import business is full of idiots, whiners, crybabys and assholes - but they survive because its a young industry with uneducated consumers. People go in and out faster than I can keep track (anyone hear that UPRD went under?). The smart ones, like Oscar Jackson or John Ciancaldi (AEM) stay low profile and then sell their companies to larger entities. Over the years I've met a lot of guys in the biz, Dan Paramore, John Ciancaldi (used to have a beautiful red E-type roadster), Dave Light (Lightspeed), Oscar Jackson, Darrin (R&D Dyno, just set a NA ET record), etc. They're all good people taken as individuals and I learn something everytime I talk to these guys, but put them into the import arena and suddenly they're all cheaters, liars, crooks, etc. - at least according to the rumors. I think Larry Widmer at Endyn put it best when interviewed for a recent Hot Rod article - he said, and I quote, "I'm a prick". Kind of makes it tough for anyone to say anything bad about you after that and I can respect the attitude when dealing with the ricer crowd.

BTW, I met Bill Gude once at Nopi (I think, or it was Pomona). I don't particularly care for his approach, but he's an old school guy that knows a lot and he's built some fast cars. Sorry for spouting off, but there is so much bad mouthing in this business and most of these people are really decent folk.

If I can give one piece of advice, it is get to know the person doing your work. Establish a good relationship and things will usually go more smoothly.

UL

p.s. - my favorite auto celebrity is Ed Iskenderian. What a cool guy. Not much on the import biz, but he certainly was able to appreciate the advancements in production car engines. I actually got to give him a ride in my car. What a thrill.

GTRPower

UL-

UPRD...

They built me a motor that lasted all of 4 days of mild highway driving, and then refused to warranty their work whatsoever, even though they were kept abreast of the situation for the entire time (yes... for those that have read something about this before, it was them). I heard they went under a month or so ago, good riddance. Too bad the (mis)management took a couple of good people down with them. That was an expensive lesson in not necessarily believing the track records of the people who do the work, and learning that a warranty and spoken promise is not worth a damn as long as there's no good faith. Isn't that pretty sad? What's even worse is that I was elated to hear that they went under. I'm not proud to admit that I celebrated their failure and that I was bitter.

I absolutely agree with you about the import aftermarket industry in the USA selling to uneducated consumers. But, that's all that's necessary when it's dominated by looks and hype, not performance and homologated racing. The funny thing is that many of the true performance products available from the big manufacturers are sourced from the USA- forged pistons, connecting rods, etc... Our domestic racing industry is light years ahead of the import guys, with maybe a few notable exceptions that actually race at semi (and) professional levels. Don't even start on the lack of import racers in NHRA events. The commitment just isn't there. For the most part, the import world is stuck in its little world, refusing to acknowledge that there's more out there. Don't even get me started on the "JDM" hype...

I understand what you are saying about Dan Paramore- although I was talking about DPR. I saw stage VI headwork on a pre-'98 GSR pull 155HP on a chassis dyno even though the owner claimed to have at least 190HP at the wheels. He sold that particular car fairly soon after and bought a new Integra Type R. I guess one unknowledgable owner clouded my judgement quite abit especially after all the magazine hype and that guy's big talk.

FYI (actually for most other people here since you probably know that)- 20HP gains with standard port/polish techniques is not unheard of on the B18C engines when mated to proper exhaust manifolds and exhausts.

I don't know what it's worth on a F20C. I'd wait for a stroker kit!