S2000 is not a luxury car.

 

It is interesting to see the differing definitions of "sports car." There will never be agreement on this subject.

The "luxury" of the S2k is limited by Honda's marketing department, I think. They had to keep the price not too far above the Miata's. They also had to keep it lower than the Corvette. Some may laugh at my last statement, but in the classifieds in our paper today, a dealer has a left-over '07 Vette for $38K! So I suspect "price point" considerations limited the inclusion of luxury items as much as did weight considerations.

 

they are insanely awesome cars but to me they are GT cars and NOT Sports cars, a sports car is a convertible. Those cars are GT cars, it does not mean that they wont outrun the S, a GT car can easily be faster than a sports car and be a better handling car even but FOR ME a sports car is a convertible, anything else is a GT car or a Mommy wagon.

And no, being a convertible does not make a car a sports car either, there are many convertibles that are not sports cars. There has to be some attempt at good road handling.

And by the way, if you gave me an Exige I would only own that GT car long enough to sell it and get another Elise The Ferrari would be a keeper, and the Porsche would be sold so quick for a Ferrari 328 GTS it would be funny.

Lets face it, the sports car definition is a moving target that no one will ever hit, the marketers use the Sports word to get people into thinking they are driving something sporty and they are but its not a sports car if you are old enough to remember when a sports car could not have roll up windows or if you are lucky enough to have a bunch of old sports cars in the garage.

 

Well, I guess you can all now see why I say we'll never all agree on the definition of "sports car."

One man's sports car is another man's GT car. The other day I was on the Motor Trend Web site, and there was a hot-link for "sports car." When I hovered my mouse pointer over the link, guess what popped up?
Their hot link for "sports car" activates a popup with a picture of a MUSTANG.

Now let's go to the next step, and see if anyone here thinks they can define "luxury car," in a way that everyone will agree with?
(Of course, it's just a rhetorical question. )

"Luxury car" is every bit as much of a "moving definition" as "sports car." At one time air conditioning and power windows were in the exclusive domain of luxury cars, and such things had no place on a "sports car." Today, almost all cars, all but the most elemental sports car, have luxury features that would have at one time been considered out of place on a serious sports car, and those who gravitate toward elemental sports cars generally still see it that way. Any car with a cup holder, power top, power windows, power trunk release, remote locks and a trunk that opens with the push of the remote button, a radio, and so on, is certalinly not lacking in luxury, even if the ride is stiff and noisy, because the driving experience is a luxury too (depending on how one is looking at it and defining their terms).

Dolebludger, I think you are wrong about the S2000's level of luxury being limited by cost considerations. This is like thinking that a Caterham doens't have roll up windows because it would increase the cost of the car. Elemental cars are elemental because their target market demands elemental. The S2000 is Honda's attempt to give a niche market the essentials of the elemental sports car without most of the downsides, and even adding a clock the way they did in '02 is a watering down of the original concept. Do you REALLY think they left the clock out of the MY01-02 cars to lower the cost by $2 USD? OF COURSE NOT! They left it out for the same reason they hid the radio. Such things are out of place on an elemental sports car, and Honda wanted to give owners as much of the elemental as they could without making the car hard to live with. Cost considerations were not a factor. In fact, the cost of the S2000 was not even estimated, until well after the basic design was solidified. The car would have titanium rods like the NSX if the forged rods hadn't been just as suitable for the applicaiton, and the earliest cars did all ship with a solid titanium knob. Go check out the cost of titanium.

 

RedMX5:

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on marketing and price point factors plaing a role in the equipment level of the S2k. I feel that Honda had a different target market in mind than that perceived for the Caterham. On the S2k, power seats, heated seats, and tilt and telescoping wheel would have been sweet. But then, these things and similar would have been pushing "Corvette on sale" price territory, where Honda didn't want to go. This is just my theory, but a strongly held one based on my marketing background. BTW, my '01 S2k does have a clock. It's in the radio display.

I could recite a long "laundry list" of equipment the truest of luxury cars should have, but it would be too long, and nobody would take the time to read it. Instead, go check out a Mercedes Benz S 550 and note the equipment on that baby! It's a true luxury car. Then, when you evaluate the degree of luxury offered by another make and model, you can see how close it comes to the "luxury standard" by noting what is missing on it that was there on the S 550. This does not mean that the S 550 is my "dream car." In fact, you will never see one in my garage. Too big and bulky. Too much fuel consumption for the level of performance. Too much of a disconected driving experience. But it IS a true luxury car (for those who want one) and a good benchmark for automotive luxury. Another car can have fewer luxury features and still be a luxury car. But the S2k has too far too few to be considered such.

 

When did convertible top become equal to sports car? That sounds more like part of the definition of roadster. Is a STieVO not a "Sports" car? They are developed with fun in mind. They have sports suspension, engines and tuning. Is dropping the top the only way to have fun in a car? You can have as much fun carving canyons in a STieVO as any roadster. Some will say more in the STieVo because of all the boost to play with, some will say more in the roadster because the top is down.

Luxury (plural luxuries)

1. very wealthy and comfortable surroundings.
2. something desirable but expensive.
3. something very pleasant but not really needed in life.

Does the S fit any of the points above? I would say 3 for sure, and 2 depending on the size of your bank account. Point 1 with a push if you never owned something European.

 

Brief clarification:

The pruchase of a sports car, GT car, or even a "Hummer" can be considered a "luxury purchase, because the vehicle cost a lot more than "basic transportation."
But that does not necessarily mean that the vehicle is a "luxury car."

 

One of the things I'd like to get across to everyone who hasn't gotten it yet is why it is that people like (for example) you and I sometimes have to agree to disagree. On top of that, I'm not totally convinced that we do actually have to agree to disagree. One reason I say that is because I don't really disagree with most of what you have said, and even agree with all of it, when I look at it from certain perspectives.

Certainly Honda had a different target market in mind than Caterham or Arial, or for that matter, anyone else, so that's one thing about which we are in total agreement.

Where we differe is that you and I are not in the same market segment, so we see things differently. I say this because you feel that power seats with heat, and a tilt/telescope wheel would be sweet, and I honestly would not have bought the car if it has had that level of compromise, even if it had been cheaper. The only thing Honda put on the (origial) car that I'd have left off was the radio, and given that the car is such a perfect match to my desires, it's hard not to think that the car was designed by guys who liked the same things I like, and targeted at people who like the same things I like. Funny thing is, I reached that conclusion before reading the early Honda press releases that conclusively state (IMO) that the car was built for people like me. I actually find it amusing when people think I'm stuipd for buying into the advertising hype, becuase the hype actually matches conclusions I'd reached independently long before ever seeing the hype. I actually looked for several months to find a like new MY00 car with a known history, and paid about $6k more for the car than book, to get the best original S2000 I could find, because all the "upgrades" tend to put me off. You think the car needs to be changed becasue you weren't the target of the original design, but when you're sitting dead center like I am, it looks quite different (and my thinking here has nothing at all to do with marketing hype, even though the press releases do confirm it).

Look at it this way. Back in '04 when I bought my car, I also looked at Caterhams, which were between $06k-$70k at the time, and I also looked at the SLK, so if I cared about cars like the Vette, I'd have considered them too, but such cars are too much about luxury for my tastes. The S2000 represents the perfect compromise between an honest to goodness all out raw sports car like a Caterham and something the average guy (like me) can be comfortable with in day to day use. We get 99% of what a pure sports car offers, without having to sweat when it's hot out, get wet when it rains, or freeze when it gets cold, so, except for the radio, the original S2000 didn't have anything it didn't need to move the basic sports car idea into a realm that is both safer, and a hell of a lot easier to live with. If that wasn't Honda's intent, then the S2000 is the most fortuitous accident since live arose from the primordal slime. Honda has claimed that this was thier intent, and the car wreaks of the success they achieved, and seeing it as an accident really misses the whole point of the S2000. It is exactly what Honda said it would be in their early press releases, poluted over time by marketing pressures. I dare say that this is based on facts, though I'll admit that the validity of the facts are not above question.

Those who don't agree simply are not as dead center of the intended target market as guys like me, so they see things differently. I (for one) can see things from their (and your) perspective, so the only quesiton is whether or not you can see things from my perspective (which seems for all the world to be the bulls eye Honda was aiming at with the S2000).

Or maybe you're right, and I'm just the most fortunate man alive, to have a comapny like Honda accidently build a car that so perfectly suited what I wanted. I seriously doubt it, but that could indeed be the case.
Buy (hahaha ) even if that were the case, wouldn't that really just mean that I represent their target market? (According to their published demographics, I am also dead center.)

Anyway, you can disagree if you like, but as one who is sitting on the bullseye, you'll never convince me that the near perfect match was an accident. Especially since Honda says that they did it on purpose.

 

Compare to the S Class to rate luxury.

 

Red MX5:

After reading your last post, I feel we disagree on very little. They will get my S2k away from me by prying it from my cold, dead, hands. While I do not believe it qualifies under the definition of a "luxury car", I was NOT looking for a luxury car when I bought it! Like you, I was looking for something quite different. And, we got it, didn't we?

Here's another point I'll bet we agree upon. I feel that the S2k's interior is one of the most tastefully designed interiors out there, even though it lacks some of the features that "luxury car" interiors have. The S2k interior will NEVER look out-of-style! And indeed, nowhere in any of my posts above did I state that I wanted a true "luxury car." I don't. Too much computer-driven stuff for me to understand and operate! My wife has to take care of all that digital stuff on our two Mercedes, and they don't have as much of it as true luxury cars. The owners' manuals on both those cars are as thick as "King Lear." I also appreciate a car where the owners' manual says "get in car, insert key, turn key all the way to the right, press start button, drive car -- if you need more instruction you bought the wrong car."

So just because I've said that the S2k is not a luxury car, but instead is a sports car (perhaps with a few rough edges smoothed) doesn't mean that I think it is an undesirable car. Quite the opposite. I will own a sports car for the rest of my life. I probably will never want a true luxury car like the Mercedes S 550.