Originally Posted by RED MX5,May 17 2007, 09:00 PM

I'm not really mad, but I am a little tired of some of the on-going arguments that keep popping up, and I'm not the only one. We have too many people talking smack about the car simply because they don't know any better, and we can eleminate much of the BS if we sort the wheat from the chaff and get the facts out in the open, in a sticky, where we can all just point to it when necessary. The recent thread with all the smack talking about the F20C and F22C is little more than a collection of garbage that we'd be better off without, and the argument will continue for as long as there are people who are ignorant about the history of their car. If we eleminate or limit the ignorance the arguments will also be eleminated or reduced, so I'm going to give it a shot.

Personally I don't give a rats butt which engine makes more power or is more advanced, becuase my car isn't in the same race. The performance of YOUR stock S2000 is really of no interest to me, and if you're a good enough driver you can out run most of the people who post on S2kI, including myself. All I care about is putting and end to, or eleminating, as much of the smack talking on both sides of the table as I possibly can. The owners who deny the advantages of the F22C are no more well informed than the F22C owners who totally fail to understand the F20C. Ignorance is not in short supply on either side of the debate and it's time to set the record straight and stop all the smack talking.

Those of you who know me (and I think that includes most of the people here) know I take a moderate position on things and try to look at both sides of every issue that comes up. I'm more apt to think that two people who disagree are both partly right than to think I have all the answers, but these on going engine debates are too stupid to be allowed to continue unabated. Instead of arguing about the matter, it makes more sense to look back at the history of our cars.

The S2000 was introduced in the year 2000, and it boasted a hoast of features that appeal to a certain type of driver. It was a roadster, with amazingly high specific output and a corrospondingly high red line. It had razor sharp handling, and what many saw as the best production shifter ever offered to the public. It had a light flywheel to make the engine more responsive, and in the year 2000, nobody had any questions about the cars intent, it's target market, or the degree to which it succeded in exceeding everyone's expectations. If you own a newer car, and thinks that sucks, you need to consider getting a cat scan, because somethin' ain't right.

The F20C was unique for a production engine in a number of ways, but the things that made it, and the S2000 so special most certainly included the high specific output and high redline. Damn it guys, how can any of you be so stupid as to fail to see the attraction of the original car, especially if you look at it from the perspective of the year 2000. If you can't, definately consider a cat scan.

I can't for the life of me understand why someone with an F22C powered car would not be PROUD of that heritage, but we see it all the time. Consider a cat scan.
LOL, I've already had one. They scanned my head, and found nothing.

I'm sorry guys, but failing to appreciate the F20C, with it's redline, specific output, and light flywheel (among other things) is just ignorant, and takes away from the F22C as much as it takes away from your own ability to appreciate the fine car you own. The people who have the F20C like it for the same damn reason Honda designed it the way they did, and if you're can't grasp that ...
Cat scan?

Just for the record, until recently the F22C was only available in the US. It was actually designed for the US market, to meet the unique requirements of US Honda. It is a slightly simpler design (but only in terms of the intake cam lobes), that is more suitable for, and tolerant of, the way people in the US treat their cars. For example, if you accidently hit second instead of forth when shifting at the redline, and you're driving an AP1, the engine will over rev almost instantly, and it's very easy to damage the retainers on the intake valves. Of course the little engine was not designed to be over reved in this way, so this is not a reflection on the F20C or the way it works. It is a reflection of the mistakes a driver can make, and nothing more. IOW, don't blame in on the damn car! Do the same thing with an F22C and it's a totally different situation. The heavier clutch means that the engine speed won't skyrocket as quickly. The CDV slows the clutch engagement, so again, the engine speed doesn't increase as quickly, AND the driver has longer to realize his mistake and get the clutch back in. Lowering the redline offers additional protection in an over rev, because the engine has further to go before reaching the point of failure, and thicker retainers insure that there won't be over rev problems until the revs to high enough for the pistons to start hitting the exhaust valves. For anyone who is worried about making a "money shift," this is all a plus. Honda did not stop there though, becasue if they had the "new" S2000 engine would have made less power, and then how many of you would want an S2000 with 20 fewer ponies? In the US we are also in love with torque, and by adding displacement Honda made up for the lost power, and performance, so there is no perforamnce penalty with the F22C. With the revised gearing it's a great match for the car, and maintains the spirit of the original while providing some additional performance and protection to better match US needs.

The only thing you give up with the F22C are a few of the defining characteristics of the original car (the high specific output, under 2l classification, and high red line WERE all defining characteristics of the original, so get over it and join the rest of us in the real world if you're choking on the truth).

I'm tired of it guys. If you prefer the F20C and you can't grasp the advantages of the F22C then you just need to either show that the advantages don't exist or STFU. If you prefer the F22C and can't grasp what it is that makes the F20C so special, then you need to do the same. Either show that it is ignorant to prefer the engine with the higher red line, lighter flywheel, and higher specific output, the very things that Honda promoted as being so great about the engine, or you too can just STFU. I'm not going to be Mr. Nice Guy any more in those stupid threads. I'm just going to point back to this thread, so if you don't yet understand you never will, and I no longer give a rats backside, because with this post I have put the problem in your lap, where it belongs.

You guys take your best shots at what I've said if you think I'm wrong. I won't mind, but be aware that no less than BILLMAN aggrees regarding the reasons for the changes in the F22C, and unless XViper PM's me telling me otherwise I am assuming that he too aggrees. You can argue with me about it if you are so inclined, and you might even show that I'm full of crap, but that's OK, just as long as we put an end to all the smack talking we're putting up with here.

Like it or not, that ^^^ is the way it is. If you disagree, show the errors in my post instead of talking smack.

I welcome informed disagreement, because we can all learn, but uninformed or rude responses will be delt with accordingly.
If you can't say it nicely and with a smile then just don't say it at all, becaue it's probably wrong anyway.

(Red grabs his nomex and clicks the <Post New Topic> button. )

Originally Posted by Emil St-Hilaire,May 17 2007, 09:21 PM

and,I'm all with you Red MX5.
After all,this car is 8 years old,and not for everyone.

Originally Posted by s2kforlife,May 17 2007, 09:09 PM

you post the same thing over and over again, and you make the ap2 sound like it's a boat. Honestly i like to read a lot of the ap1 vs. ap2 for laughs and giggles, but i never once saw that the F22 guys didn't appreciate the f20 engine. I for one do it is a great engine, but even if the f22 was made for the American market it doesn't mean that the engine hasn't improved. I don't really see honda going backwards yanno? This isn't meant to argue with you, it's just that i see you always trying to defend the ap1/ attack the ap2 cars vigorously.

BTW what happened to that break you were going to take?

take care

s2kforlife

Originally Posted by s2kforlife,May 17 2007, 09:13 PM

o btw, i do like the ap1 more for the fun factor, but after hearing about the little problems with it i decided to step up to the newer version.

Originally Posted by radtech,May 17 2007, 09:18 PM

I just fell asleep after the 3rd paragraph, ur post sounds like their arguments, repeating itself over an over again.

Let people bitch and whine about there cars, it's good for you. There's always going to arguing, it's normal. Go to other club sites, they argue about the same things.

Originally Posted by Woodson,May 17 2007, 09:25 PM

Or you could just not click on those threads if it bothers you that much.