Is low torque a problem?
09-21-2001, 10:37 AM
#11
[QUOTE]Originally posted by foolio
[B]
Hi, first post... but I just went to the Honda website about the s2000 and they had a small quicktime movie that said the VTEC uses 3 sets of lobes, for low, mid, and high rpm.
[B]
Hi, first post... but I just went to the Honda website about the s2000 and they had a small quicktime movie that said the VTEC uses 3 sets of lobes, for low, mid, and high rpm.
09-21-2001, 11:00 AM
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Is low torque a problem?
09-22-2001, 12:29 PM
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Some reviews have criticized the S2000 as having a "Dr Jekyll and Mr. Hyde" personality. That is, too little power when driven modestly and too much (if there is any such thing) when driven aggressively. Trust me, this is not a fault, but rather the best part of the car. You can take a pleasant drive with your honey to the ice cream shop on Friday evening, then feel like a F-1 driver on Saturday morning in the mountains. In short, the car will be what you want it to be (except a luxo-coupe or dragster). Don't trust the magazine articles or even a dealer test drive. Go for a ride (and hopefully get to drive) with someone who has had the car for at least 6 months, you'll never go back to the Audi dealer.
09-22-2001, 05:27 PM
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depends.
if you want a car that FEELS fast, then the lack of low-end torque will be a problem.
if you want a car that will challenge V8s off the line, then the lack of low-end torque will be a problem.
if you want to race Z06s on tracks with super slow corners and long straights, then the lack of low-end torque will be a problem.
on the other hand...
if you want a car that IS fast, no problem.
if you want a car that will beat up on most of the big boys in the twisties, no problem.
if you want to walk around with a big ol' grin on your face every time you get out of the car... no problem.
if you want a car that FEELS fast, then the lack of low-end torque will be a problem.
if you want a car that will challenge V8s off the line, then the lack of low-end torque will be a problem.
if you want to race Z06s on tracks with super slow corners and long straights, then the lack of low-end torque will be a problem.
on the other hand...
if you want a car that IS fast, no problem.
if you want a car that will beat up on most of the big boys in the twisties, no problem.
if you want to walk around with a big ol' grin on your face every time you get out of the car... no problem.
10-05-2001, 11:05 PM
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I agree with Malachi's last post, and the person who said: drive both and buy what makes you smile. That said, here's my take:
Weight is the enemy of performance - both acceleration and handling. The standard TT Roadster weighs about 300 lbs more than the S2000, and has 60 less horsepower. The quattro TT Roadster weighs over 600lbs more than the S2000 and has 15 horsepower less. The weight difference is largely because the S20k was built as a roadster, whereas the TT was built as a coupe, and to keep it stiff after they chop the top off they have to add a bunch of bracing. In addition, the S2k was built with Colin Chapman's dictum in mind: "simplicate and add lightness." The TT appears to me to be more of a luxury GT car.
So let's look at acceleration. Both TT's are going to have slower 1/4 miles and 0-60's. Both TT's have more torque than the S2000, so they may feel quicker off the line (for sure the quattro will), but once rolling the S2000 will be noticeably faster.
In handling, lightness again makes a huge difference. Expect an S2k to leave any TT in the dust on dry pavement. The standard TT is front wheel drive - few enthusiasts save the slammed Civic crowd prefer front wheel drive. The quattro is of course AWD, which is a large benefit in the wet or frozen stuff. If you are expecting to drive in the rain, snow or ice frequently, I would seriously consider the TT (either one) and not the S2k. Even with fresh tires the S2k can surprise when the road is slick.
How about style? Well, this is certainly a personal matter, and I prefer the S2k to the TT's bulbous Bauhaus revival, but if you read the mags the TT seems to elicit praise from everyone. The S2k seems to be more in the eye of the beholder.
How about technology? The S2k is probably the most advanced performance car for the money you can buy. Meaning: record-setting engine technology that reflects much of Honda's F1 and CART experience; suspension incorporates decades of legendary Honda handling development; transmission is one of the shortest throw units around, although some 2000-01 units seem to have problems (presumably fixed in 02). The TT however probably LOOKS more high-tech to most casual observers. But underneath, it shares a lot with a Volkswagen New Beetle, right down to the engine.
How about craftsmanship? No doubt Audi turns out a fine piece, with build quality and materials equalled by few manufacturers. Nonetheless, it is a production-line piece, albeit at about the highest state of the German art. The S2000, on the other hand, is often soundly rebuked for poor interior materials. Its clearly here that Honda saved the dollars spent on expensive running gear. But, the S2k has this: it is built in Honda's Tochigo plant, where hand assembly is commonplace, and the only other cars turned out are the NSX and the Insight. Clearly, Honda reserves the Tochigi plant for complex, leading edge cars on which it intends to build its reputation. At least judging by the JD Power initial and long term reliability studies on the NSX, Tochigi products are the best in the world, bar none. And what other car than the S2000 offers hand-built quality in the spartan outfit of a true roadster? Perhaps a Lotus Elise, but they cost twice as much and you can't get one here.
How about heritage? Audi, in one form or another, has been around since the twenties, and parent Volkswagen obviously started just before WWII. But other than the impressive Le Mans runs of the last two years, post-war Audi has been largely absent from racing; Volkswagen completely. Honda, on the other hand, started just after WWII, right about the same time Porsche was founded. And the parallels between Ferdinand and Soichiro are remarkable: both men founded their own car companies, both men believed racing was key to both technological advancement and marketing success, both men believed in lightness and innovation. You kind of feel like Herr Porsche would really appreciate how Honda-san approached automobile design. It is safe to say that, in modern (i.e. post-war) times, Honda's racing legacy is hugely more significant than Audi's. And let's not forget that the S2000 was built to commemorate Honda's 50th anniversary as a car-maker, so it is a heritage piece in itself.
How about having fun driving? The S2k is all about having Formula One sensations at an affordable price, especially on the track. Even reviewers who find the S2k too pure, too much caffeine, for the open road, will say there are few cars that deliver an authentic track experience like the S2k. If you want to go to your local track and learn to drive fast, the S2k is leagues ahead of either TT. Go to any Driver's Education event - you'll see very few TT's of any kind, and more and more S2000 drivers. Neither the TT nor it's typical owner is comfortable on the track. This is not an insult, simply a statement about what different people want out of their cars.
One caveat, though: you have to pay attention driving an S2000; they are high-strung cars that reward smoothness and precision, but will bite you if mis-handled. This is true of many great handling cars, and it adds excitement and character, but it is something to remember at the end of a long day driving in the rain in heavy traffic. If you picture yourself learning to race, the S2k is your car. If your internal movie shows you cruising the boulevards or heading for the slopes, then the TT may be a better purchase.
Lastly, how much to own one? Base price for an Audi quattro TT Roadster: $38,900; standard TT Roadster: $33,200; Honda S2000: $32,700. And you can't get much in the way of options on the S2k, whereas you can option either TT to the hilt. For example, Xenon lights, which come standard on the Honda, are an extra $880 on either TT. On the other hand, S2k stereos (at least the 00 and 01 models) are pretty bad, while TT offers Bose upgrades. Audi maintenance is included in the purchase price, and the cars have a 48 month/50k mile warranty. With the Honda, you will pay for maintenance, but the fees are Honda frugal. The S2k has a 36 month/36,000 mile warranty. The S2k will eat $180 tires rapidly, however, and you want to make sure you have good ones on all the time. Given that the S2k is a Honda, and it is purported to be a limited production model, it will probably hold its resale value better; this is not an area Audi in which Audi performs well. Dollars per horsepower, the Honda wins hands-down, but if options are your thing, Audi takes the cake and eats it, too.
Bottom line? Buy what makes you and your sigificant other feel good. In my mind, though, the TT is like a nice warm cup of good French hot chocolate, a rich sensation that goes down sweet and smooth. The S2000, on the other hand, is like a shot of expresso, no milk please, every time I drive it. Driven right, your heart-rate will match your RPMs by the time you latch the roof, pull the key and roll out of the car. Make mine a double, please!
Best of luck,
Paul
Weight is the enemy of performance - both acceleration and handling. The standard TT Roadster weighs about 300 lbs more than the S2000, and has 60 less horsepower. The quattro TT Roadster weighs over 600lbs more than the S2000 and has 15 horsepower less. The weight difference is largely because the S20k was built as a roadster, whereas the TT was built as a coupe, and to keep it stiff after they chop the top off they have to add a bunch of bracing. In addition, the S2k was built with Colin Chapman's dictum in mind: "simplicate and add lightness." The TT appears to me to be more of a luxury GT car.
So let's look at acceleration. Both TT's are going to have slower 1/4 miles and 0-60's. Both TT's have more torque than the S2000, so they may feel quicker off the line (for sure the quattro will), but once rolling the S2000 will be noticeably faster.
In handling, lightness again makes a huge difference. Expect an S2k to leave any TT in the dust on dry pavement. The standard TT is front wheel drive - few enthusiasts save the slammed Civic crowd prefer front wheel drive. The quattro is of course AWD, which is a large benefit in the wet or frozen stuff. If you are expecting to drive in the rain, snow or ice frequently, I would seriously consider the TT (either one) and not the S2k. Even with fresh tires the S2k can surprise when the road is slick.
How about style? Well, this is certainly a personal matter, and I prefer the S2k to the TT's bulbous Bauhaus revival, but if you read the mags the TT seems to elicit praise from everyone. The S2k seems to be more in the eye of the beholder.
How about technology? The S2k is probably the most advanced performance car for the money you can buy. Meaning: record-setting engine technology that reflects much of Honda's F1 and CART experience; suspension incorporates decades of legendary Honda handling development; transmission is one of the shortest throw units around, although some 2000-01 units seem to have problems (presumably fixed in 02). The TT however probably LOOKS more high-tech to most casual observers. But underneath, it shares a lot with a Volkswagen New Beetle, right down to the engine.
How about craftsmanship? No doubt Audi turns out a fine piece, with build quality and materials equalled by few manufacturers. Nonetheless, it is a production-line piece, albeit at about the highest state of the German art. The S2000, on the other hand, is often soundly rebuked for poor interior materials. Its clearly here that Honda saved the dollars spent on expensive running gear. But, the S2k has this: it is built in Honda's Tochigo plant, where hand assembly is commonplace, and the only other cars turned out are the NSX and the Insight. Clearly, Honda reserves the Tochigi plant for complex, leading edge cars on which it intends to build its reputation. At least judging by the JD Power initial and long term reliability studies on the NSX, Tochigi products are the best in the world, bar none. And what other car than the S2000 offers hand-built quality in the spartan outfit of a true roadster? Perhaps a Lotus Elise, but they cost twice as much and you can't get one here.
How about heritage? Audi, in one form or another, has been around since the twenties, and parent Volkswagen obviously started just before WWII. But other than the impressive Le Mans runs of the last two years, post-war Audi has been largely absent from racing; Volkswagen completely. Honda, on the other hand, started just after WWII, right about the same time Porsche was founded. And the parallels between Ferdinand and Soichiro are remarkable: both men founded their own car companies, both men believed racing was key to both technological advancement and marketing success, both men believed in lightness and innovation. You kind of feel like Herr Porsche would really appreciate how Honda-san approached automobile design. It is safe to say that, in modern (i.e. post-war) times, Honda's racing legacy is hugely more significant than Audi's. And let's not forget that the S2000 was built to commemorate Honda's 50th anniversary as a car-maker, so it is a heritage piece in itself.
How about having fun driving? The S2k is all about having Formula One sensations at an affordable price, especially on the track. Even reviewers who find the S2k too pure, too much caffeine, for the open road, will say there are few cars that deliver an authentic track experience like the S2k. If you want to go to your local track and learn to drive fast, the S2k is leagues ahead of either TT. Go to any Driver's Education event - you'll see very few TT's of any kind, and more and more S2000 drivers. Neither the TT nor it's typical owner is comfortable on the track. This is not an insult, simply a statement about what different people want out of their cars.
One caveat, though: you have to pay attention driving an S2000; they are high-strung cars that reward smoothness and precision, but will bite you if mis-handled. This is true of many great handling cars, and it adds excitement and character, but it is something to remember at the end of a long day driving in the rain in heavy traffic. If you picture yourself learning to race, the S2k is your car. If your internal movie shows you cruising the boulevards or heading for the slopes, then the TT may be a better purchase.
Lastly, how much to own one? Base price for an Audi quattro TT Roadster: $38,900; standard TT Roadster: $33,200; Honda S2000: $32,700. And you can't get much in the way of options on the S2k, whereas you can option either TT to the hilt. For example, Xenon lights, which come standard on the Honda, are an extra $880 on either TT. On the other hand, S2k stereos (at least the 00 and 01 models) are pretty bad, while TT offers Bose upgrades. Audi maintenance is included in the purchase price, and the cars have a 48 month/50k mile warranty. With the Honda, you will pay for maintenance, but the fees are Honda frugal. The S2k has a 36 month/36,000 mile warranty. The S2k will eat $180 tires rapidly, however, and you want to make sure you have good ones on all the time. Given that the S2k is a Honda, and it is purported to be a limited production model, it will probably hold its resale value better; this is not an area Audi in which Audi performs well. Dollars per horsepower, the Honda wins hands-down, but if options are your thing, Audi takes the cake and eats it, too.
Bottom line? Buy what makes you and your sigificant other feel good. In my mind, though, the TT is like a nice warm cup of good French hot chocolate, a rich sensation that goes down sweet and smooth. The S2000, on the other hand, is like a shot of expresso, no milk please, every time I drive it. Driven right, your heart-rate will match your RPMs by the time you latch the roof, pull the key and roll out of the car. Make mine a double, please!
Best of luck,
Paul
10-06-2001, 02:08 AM
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Paul,
That was a pleasure to read. Well conceived and beautifully written.
.........nothing against the younger members of our board, but when I watch my two sons on Instant Messenger, their fingers flying over the keyboard, there is never any thought of grammar, punctuation or spelling. That is how I feel when I read some of the posts on this forum.
Thanks for taking your time.
That was a pleasure to read. Well conceived and beautifully written.
.........nothing against the younger members of our board, but when I watch my two sons on Instant Messenger, their fingers flying over the keyboard, there is never any thought of grammar, punctuation or spelling. That is how I feel when I read some of the posts on this forum.
Thanks for taking your time.
10-06-2001, 02:48 AM
#17
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sebring Silver
[B]Paul,
[B]Paul,
10-06-2001, 05:20 AM
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I completely agree with Sebring Silver!
Paul- wonderful insights and stupendous execution!
I sometimes worry I'm the only one who remembers there is a shift key on the keyboard, and that the proper usage of English is something to be proud of, and used often.
Paul- wonderful insights and stupendous execution!
I sometimes worry I'm the only one who remembers there is a shift key on the keyboard, and that the proper usage of English is something to be proud of, and used often.
10-06-2001, 05:37 AM
#20
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It's great to see you posting here Paul. I remember your thoughtful and amusing posts from back in the Honda-Acura.net days. I'd like to nominate you as S2000 International's spokesperson 
.
I'd like to support dlg04's suggestion that this piece be preserved in our FAQ page, and encourage you to submit your hilarious piece on shift knob weights to the Webmaster. Cheers!
.I'd like to support dlg04's suggestion that this piece be preserved in our FAQ page, and encourage you to submit your hilarious piece on shift knob weights to the Webmaster. Cheers!