Neuspeed Exhaust strikes again...
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It's not my intention to argue with our customers, but I need to clarify a few things that I've read on this thread that concern me.
First, the valance on our prototype car (which actually is owned by RedScorp) exhibits a very mild version of the valance melting. Several local owners, including Clive in Camarillo, have seen this car PRIOR to purchasing their systems, during the period we were testing the Neuspeed/Koni prototype shocks. At worst, this car has a nickel-sized spot on each side of the valance opening where the plastic has been touched, but not melted through. Since I do the exhaust work on this car myself, I just repositioned the rear mufflers to halt any further contact between the muffler and the valance. I take offense to anyone stating that I "knew this could happen... but told no one."
Second, while I'm glad that the S2ki forum exists, it is not a good place for people to reach us when they have problems. PLEASE CONTACT US DIRECTLY AT INFO@NEUSPEED.COM.
When Tom F. in San Diego (the first person to report this issue) contacted me directly about his car, we discussed possible reasons why his car (at the time) was the only vehicle to exhibit the problem. AT THE TIME, the only correlation we could make was that Tom autocrossed the car and was able to put some serious side loads on the exhaust.
A month passed after Tom reported his problem to me. Clive W. in Camarillo notified me directly that his car had also experienced this problem, and that Jeff L. had also reported a problem on his car on the S2Ki forum.
Clive brought his car in yesterday and we saw that it was happening only on the driver's side muffler, and only on the left side of the exhaust tip. As I moved Clive's system back and forth on the hangers, I noticed that the driver's side muffler was mounted with a slight bias towards one side. I loosened the clamp connecting the Y pipe to the end muffler and discovered that the Y pipe tube was pushed as far into the swedged portion of the muffler pipe as it could go. So, I removed the muffler from the Y pipe, trimmed 3/8" off the end of the Y pipe, and reattached the muffler, positioning it with a slight bias towards the center of the car. That seemed to have helped quite a bit. Clive is going to drive his car around for a week or two and report back to me on whether that cured the problem.
This information was shared last night with Tom and Jeff via email so they could look at their cars and see if this adjustment procedure would help out.
If anyone else notices this problem on their car, PLEASE CONTACT ME DIRECTLY. I don't monitor this bulletin board daily. I will be happy to lead you through this adjustment procedure step by step. If you still are experiencing the problem even after adjusting the rear muffler position, I will be happy to send you a 3-1/2" tip to replace the 4" tip.
While I appreciate Silver Bullet sharing an excerpt from my email to him with the forum, I think an important clarification needs to be made. A 4" tip will fit through the valance opening. However, it leaves little room for muffler adjustment, side-to-side, to reposition the tip relative to the valance opening.
Thanks for the airtime!
Greg Woo
NEUSPEED
First, the valance on our prototype car (which actually is owned by RedScorp) exhibits a very mild version of the valance melting. Several local owners, including Clive in Camarillo, have seen this car PRIOR to purchasing their systems, during the period we were testing the Neuspeed/Koni prototype shocks. At worst, this car has a nickel-sized spot on each side of the valance opening where the plastic has been touched, but not melted through. Since I do the exhaust work on this car myself, I just repositioned the rear mufflers to halt any further contact between the muffler and the valance. I take offense to anyone stating that I "knew this could happen... but told no one."
Second, while I'm glad that the S2ki forum exists, it is not a good place for people to reach us when they have problems. PLEASE CONTACT US DIRECTLY AT INFO@NEUSPEED.COM.
When Tom F. in San Diego (the first person to report this issue) contacted me directly about his car, we discussed possible reasons why his car (at the time) was the only vehicle to exhibit the problem. AT THE TIME, the only correlation we could make was that Tom autocrossed the car and was able to put some serious side loads on the exhaust.
A month passed after Tom reported his problem to me. Clive W. in Camarillo notified me directly that his car had also experienced this problem, and that Jeff L. had also reported a problem on his car on the S2Ki forum.
Clive brought his car in yesterday and we saw that it was happening only on the driver's side muffler, and only on the left side of the exhaust tip. As I moved Clive's system back and forth on the hangers, I noticed that the driver's side muffler was mounted with a slight bias towards one side. I loosened the clamp connecting the Y pipe to the end muffler and discovered that the Y pipe tube was pushed as far into the swedged portion of the muffler pipe as it could go. So, I removed the muffler from the Y pipe, trimmed 3/8" off the end of the Y pipe, and reattached the muffler, positioning it with a slight bias towards the center of the car. That seemed to have helped quite a bit. Clive is going to drive his car around for a week or two and report back to me on whether that cured the problem.
This information was shared last night with Tom and Jeff via email so they could look at their cars and see if this adjustment procedure would help out.
If anyone else notices this problem on their car, PLEASE CONTACT ME DIRECTLY. I don't monitor this bulletin board daily. I will be happy to lead you through this adjustment procedure step by step. If you still are experiencing the problem even after adjusting the rear muffler position, I will be happy to send you a 3-1/2" tip to replace the 4" tip.
While I appreciate Silver Bullet sharing an excerpt from my email to him with the forum, I think an important clarification needs to be made. A 4" tip will fit through the valance opening. However, it leaves little room for muffler adjustment, side-to-side, to reposition the tip relative to the valance opening.
Thanks for the airtime!
Greg Woo
NEUSPEED
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,664
Likes: 9
From: Plano
Greg I think you have handled the issue well but I have a concern that I would like to share as well. You stated that "the valance on our prototype car (which actually is owned by RedScorp) exhibits a very mild version of the valance melting." I really don't care if it is minor or burning up the entire rear valance. You did had/have a problem with the exhaust design (minor or not) and let it go to market. This is the point we are trying to make. I think that was a huge mistake, S2K owners will not take it lightly. My HKS has large tips as well with minimal clearance and it does not have this problem. It is bolt-on and go, no adjusting, cut-to-fit, etc.
Just had to put in my .02
Just had to put in my .02
Thread Starter
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From: Fuquay-Varina
Greg,
First off, I want to think Neuspeed for addressing the problem by taking the step to redesign the mufflers.
However, I have to agree with Clovis, if there was any sign of the problem in the prototype the system should have never been sold.
Secondly, I did call Neuspeed to report my problem. The very day that I had my system installed, I called your tech support line. (805-388-7171) I spoke with a representive at that time and reported exactly what happened to my car. Your representive indicated that the prototype car did experience the same problem and that Neuspeed felt the problem lied in installation. He said that it was important to adjust the muffler clamps to ensure proper clearances with the valance. I specifically asked him about the possiblility of the tips themselves getting too hot and causing the melting, he said that you had determined that not to be the problem.
It was only because you read this message board, that I was able to communicate my problem to you and personally I'm glad that happened because I'm not sure we would be where we are today with out this board.
First off, I want to think Neuspeed for addressing the problem by taking the step to redesign the mufflers.
However, I have to agree with Clovis, if there was any sign of the problem in the prototype the system should have never been sold.
Secondly, I did call Neuspeed to report my problem. The very day that I had my system installed, I called your tech support line. (805-388-7171) I spoke with a representive at that time and reported exactly what happened to my car. Your representive indicated that the prototype car did experience the same problem and that Neuspeed felt the problem lied in installation. He said that it was important to adjust the muffler clamps to ensure proper clearances with the valance. I specifically asked him about the possiblility of the tips themselves getting too hot and causing the melting, he said that you had determined that not to be the problem.
It was only because you read this message board, that I was able to communicate my problem to you and personally I'm glad that happened because I'm not sure we would be where we are today with out this board.
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Joined: Nov 2000
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Clovis,
You have the timeline wrong. I'm not singling you out, but anyone who thinks I released this exhaust to market while knowing that the exhaust had a clearance problem is probably not aware of the timeline.
November 1999 - Prototype exhaust is fitted to Mike Matter's S2000 and exhibited at the 1999 SEMA SHOW.
December 1999 - approx. June 2000 - no further work takes place on the exhaust project.
July - October 2000 - Second prototype is fitted to RedScorp's car. Check the archives. He drove the car around and did not report any valance-to-tip contact.
October 2000 - Exhausts go into production
November 2000 - Exhausts are released for sale
Late November 2000 - Tom F. in San Diego reports problem with his exhaust contacting valance at an autocross event.
December 2000 - No one else contacted me about this problem.
December 9, 2000 - 3 local S2000 owners come to visit our facility to inspect RedScorp's car during shock absorber testing. All 3 inspect car. 2 of the 3 choose to purchase system after inspecting car.
January 23 - Clive e-mails me to let me know that he and Jeff also have valance problems. Jeff emails me later the same day.
January 25 - Clive brings his car to our facility so I can look at his car and execute an immediate solution, which may or may not be the final solution to his problem.
Tom, Jeff and Clive have a legitimate reason to be on my back for a solution to their problems. I ask that the rest of you refrain from fanning the flames while I work with them directly.
Thank you.
Greg Woo
NEUSPEED
You have the timeline wrong. I'm not singling you out, but anyone who thinks I released this exhaust to market while knowing that the exhaust had a clearance problem is probably not aware of the timeline.
November 1999 - Prototype exhaust is fitted to Mike Matter's S2000 and exhibited at the 1999 SEMA SHOW.
December 1999 - approx. June 2000 - no further work takes place on the exhaust project.
July - October 2000 - Second prototype is fitted to RedScorp's car. Check the archives. He drove the car around and did not report any valance-to-tip contact.
October 2000 - Exhausts go into production
November 2000 - Exhausts are released for sale
Late November 2000 - Tom F. in San Diego reports problem with his exhaust contacting valance at an autocross event.
December 2000 - No one else contacted me about this problem.
December 9, 2000 - 3 local S2000 owners come to visit our facility to inspect RedScorp's car during shock absorber testing. All 3 inspect car. 2 of the 3 choose to purchase system after inspecting car.
January 23 - Clive e-mails me to let me know that he and Jeff also have valance problems. Jeff emails me later the same day.
January 25 - Clive brings his car to our facility so I can look at his car and execute an immediate solution, which may or may not be the final solution to his problem.
Tom, Jeff and Clive have a legitimate reason to be on my back for a solution to their problems. I ask that the rest of you refrain from fanning the flames while I work with them directly.
Thank you.
Greg Woo
NEUSPEED
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,664
Likes: 9
From: Plano
Ok, you're right I did not understand the timeline. So if I understand it correctly, you did not find any problems with the exhaust until it was out to market.
That is too bad, sounds like quality assurance/quality control was not emphasized on this project.
Not flaming your product, just surprised.
That is too bad, sounds like quality assurance/quality control was not emphasized on this project.
Not flaming your product, just surprised.
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Joined: Nov 2000
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Clovis,
In any QA system, the final dimension of the flow chart is the customer feedback loop. Our customer feedback loop works, and will ultimately lead to a solution for the 3 customers who are currently in contact with us.
However, I would like to publicly apologize to Tom Fota, who was the first person to experience this problem (as you can see by my timeline above.) When Tom brought his problem to my attention in November, no other incidents had been reported, so I had nothing to offer him in terms of a solution.
Again, I want to emphasize to any other users of the exhaust that notice this problem, try the adjustment procedure that I explained above right away, and then contact me at your earliest opportunity so I can include you in the user group I started with Tom, Clive and Jeff.
Eric Petersen, if you are reading this, thanks again for letting me use the forum to post this message.
Best Regards
Greg Woo
NEUSPEED
In any QA system, the final dimension of the flow chart is the customer feedback loop. Our customer feedback loop works, and will ultimately lead to a solution for the 3 customers who are currently in contact with us.
However, I would like to publicly apologize to Tom Fota, who was the first person to experience this problem (as you can see by my timeline above.) When Tom brought his problem to my attention in November, no other incidents had been reported, so I had nothing to offer him in terms of a solution.
Again, I want to emphasize to any other users of the exhaust that notice this problem, try the adjustment procedure that I explained above right away, and then contact me at your earliest opportunity so I can include you in the user group I started with Tom, Clive and Jeff.
Eric Petersen, if you are reading this, thanks again for letting me use the forum to post this message.
Best Regards
Greg Woo
NEUSPEED
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Joined: Nov 2000
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Zoinks,
I emailed the information you requested to your mailbox. Please contact me at greg@neuspeed.com if you did not receive them.
Greg
I emailed the information you requested to your mailbox. Please contact me at greg@neuspeed.com if you did not receive them.
Greg
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Posts: 1,575
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From: Palm Springs
Just to chime in.....Greg Woo has gone out his way to help understand and resolve this problem for me, and I appreciate that very much. I am also confident that the fix Greg did on my exhaust last night will hold up very well for the future.
From personal experience and observation, I think it's fairly unlikely that anyone with the existing Neuspeed exhaust will ever see this particular problem during normal driving (assuming it has been mounted correctly). Tom (TFota) only reported the melting of the trim after doing some track time, whereas I had the problem last weekend after doing some very hard driving, at high speed, on pretty vicious short turn twisties. I believe there were several occasions that I came close to overextending the cornering capabilities of this car, and the problem could have occurred on any car with 4" tips, similar to the Neuspeed exhaust, under these conditions.
I'm not a mechanical engineering specialist by any means, but after visually inspecting the layout of the exhaust system on my car with Greg, it was very apparent to me that there could be a design flaw in the donut hanger configuration which allows a greater right-to-left movement, than left-to-right - mainly because the center of the exhaust layout is biased on the right side. By shortening the Y connector, Greg has effectively limited the amount of deflection possible on the left muffler pipe. IMO. any exhaust will produce the same amount of side-to-side movement - whether stock, Mugen, HKS. It's only because these systems do not utilize 4" tips that they haven't exhibited the same symptoms.
I would like to add that I have no personal interest in Neuspeed whatsoever. I have received no freebies, or other inducements. All I know is that Greg Woo has shown a very professional approach to resolving this problem for me - and any others who will ultimately benefit from my collaboration with Neuspeed.
From personal experience and observation, I think it's fairly unlikely that anyone with the existing Neuspeed exhaust will ever see this particular problem during normal driving (assuming it has been mounted correctly). Tom (TFota) only reported the melting of the trim after doing some track time, whereas I had the problem last weekend after doing some very hard driving, at high speed, on pretty vicious short turn twisties. I believe there were several occasions that I came close to overextending the cornering capabilities of this car, and the problem could have occurred on any car with 4" tips, similar to the Neuspeed exhaust, under these conditions.
I'm not a mechanical engineering specialist by any means, but after visually inspecting the layout of the exhaust system on my car with Greg, it was very apparent to me that there could be a design flaw in the donut hanger configuration which allows a greater right-to-left movement, than left-to-right - mainly because the center of the exhaust layout is biased on the right side. By shortening the Y connector, Greg has effectively limited the amount of deflection possible on the left muffler pipe. IMO. any exhaust will produce the same amount of side-to-side movement - whether stock, Mugen, HKS. It's only because these systems do not utilize 4" tips that they haven't exhibited the same symptoms.
I would like to add that I have no personal interest in Neuspeed whatsoever. I have received no freebies, or other inducements. All I know is that Greg Woo has shown a very professional approach to resolving this problem for me - and any others who will ultimately benefit from my collaboration with Neuspeed.