S2000 Brakes at the track
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From: Chicago
dwb... You're right about having data, and I commend you guys for collecting it. If we are at Gingerman on the right day, we'd be happy to get some readings from the King car, too. I'm not sure if the brake ducts you have tested are similar to the ones we're running, where the air hose connects directly to a flange welded on the dust shields. It forces the air directly onto the face of the rotor, not the center of the rotor.
-dc, very astute observations about driving the car. I hope you decide to get one!
One word about the handling, it can be very confidence inspiring on the first few drives and then it can get a bit unpredictable the more drive it. I've been racing for years, and I was very happy with the handling at first. I'm still happy with it, but I now am fully 'intimate' with the quirks of the handling. All cars have these quirks, and if you are a good driver you will compensate.
Cdelena... The car might be listed at 2800, but you might want to weigh yours. Our autocross car with the Mugen Exhaust, JDM wheels and Hoosiers and spare/etc removed tips the scales at 2670. We estimate Nick's car at about 2580, but we have to get it on the scales to be sure. It's pretty easy to lighten the car a little bit.
-dc, very astute observations about driving the car. I hope you decide to get one!
One word about the handling, it can be very confidence inspiring on the first few drives and then it can get a bit unpredictable the more drive it. I've been racing for years, and I was very happy with the handling at first. I'm still happy with it, but I now am fully 'intimate' with the quirks of the handling. All cars have these quirks, and if you are a good driver you will compensate.Cdelena... The car might be listed at 2800, but you might want to weigh yours. Our autocross car with the Mugen Exhaust, JDM wheels and Hoosiers and spare/etc removed tips the scales at 2670. We estimate Nick's car at about 2580, but we have to get it on the scales to be sure. It's pretty easy to lighten the car a little bit.
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From: Vero Beach
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sir Tom GT
[B]Well it's easy to heel/toe in the s2000, but it's not easy for me to do smoothly, but I'm practicing with mixed results so far.
It's pretty hard to get the timing down just right, but once you get it, it'll be easy.
Actually, both the DSC was on and sport mode was off in the M3.
[B]Well it's easy to heel/toe in the s2000, but it's not easy for me to do smoothly, but I'm practicing with mixed results so far.
It's pretty hard to get the timing down just right, but once you get it, it'll be easy.
Actually, both the DSC was on and sport mode was off in the M3.
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From: You wish
Pardon me for coming in so late, but I have some serious issues with this "test" at Buttonwillow, or more appropriately, the conclusions drawn.
1. Did the same driver drive each car? I'm guessing not, but I don't know. And no offense intended to Prolene, but having ridden with him and driven his car back to back, he doesn't push as hard as davepk. I don't know about josh, since I've never ridden with him or had a chance to play in close quarters with him on track. I took a stock car out at Thunderhill. With the owner driving brake temps at the rotor edge never exceeded 600-650 degrees F. After my 5-6 laps, we blew right through 900 F. Driver plays a huge role.
2. Did anyone bother to note that davepk's car is a hell of a lot faster than Prolene's or Josh3io's? That supercharger is worth at least 10-15 mph at the end of straight depending upon length. Figure out how much more energy he has to shed before getting down to the same cornering speed as the other cars. Let's see, at Laguna a well driven stock S2K might hitting 105 at the end of the front straight vs. Dave's 115-120. Total energy difference to slow for a 50 mph corner - at least 25% more kinetic energy which has to be turned to heat. And yet his peak rotor temps were the same as Josh's car and his hub temps were lower. I'd say the brake ducts (and perhaps heat shield removal in the rear) made a significant difference.
3. My brake ducts added less than 1 lbs to my car when you consider that I removed some weight to put them on.
4. An experienced, aggressive driver trying for fast laps will use the brakes more aggressively and closer to the limit than an inexperienced driver.
5. A 2 lap difference may or may not have made a difference in peak temps reached. But you really don't know, right?
Design of experiment is crucial if you expect to be able to draw useful conclusions. The data here is interesting, but not sufficient to draw the conclusions you did Brad. Furthermore, having driven Prolene's car at Laguna, I have to say that I felt like the design of the system compromised overall racetrack performance. Under heavy braking, I was unable to heel/toe downshift because the brake pedal was near the floor. My right foot actually went under the gas pedal when I tried to heel/toe. The stock master cylinder does not appear well suited for the calipers used in the kit. I suggested Prolene add a pedal cover to at least allow an attempt at heel/toeing, but that's a bandaid for a bigger problem.
UL
1. Did the same driver drive each car? I'm guessing not, but I don't know. And no offense intended to Prolene, but having ridden with him and driven his car back to back, he doesn't push as hard as davepk. I don't know about josh, since I've never ridden with him or had a chance to play in close quarters with him on track. I took a stock car out at Thunderhill. With the owner driving brake temps at the rotor edge never exceeded 600-650 degrees F. After my 5-6 laps, we blew right through 900 F. Driver plays a huge role.
2. Did anyone bother to note that davepk's car is a hell of a lot faster than Prolene's or Josh3io's? That supercharger is worth at least 10-15 mph at the end of straight depending upon length. Figure out how much more energy he has to shed before getting down to the same cornering speed as the other cars. Let's see, at Laguna a well driven stock S2K might hitting 105 at the end of the front straight vs. Dave's 115-120. Total energy difference to slow for a 50 mph corner - at least 25% more kinetic energy which has to be turned to heat. And yet his peak rotor temps were the same as Josh's car and his hub temps were lower. I'd say the brake ducts (and perhaps heat shield removal in the rear) made a significant difference.
3. My brake ducts added less than 1 lbs to my car when you consider that I removed some weight to put them on.
4. An experienced, aggressive driver trying for fast laps will use the brakes more aggressively and closer to the limit than an inexperienced driver.
5. A 2 lap difference may or may not have made a difference in peak temps reached. But you really don't know, right?
Design of experiment is crucial if you expect to be able to draw useful conclusions. The data here is interesting, but not sufficient to draw the conclusions you did Brad. Furthermore, having driven Prolene's car at Laguna, I have to say that I felt like the design of the system compromised overall racetrack performance. Under heavy braking, I was unable to heel/toe downshift because the brake pedal was near the floor. My right foot actually went under the gas pedal when I tried to heel/toe. The stock master cylinder does not appear well suited for the calipers used in the kit. I suggested Prolene add a pedal cover to at least allow an attempt at heel/toeing, but that's a bandaid for a bigger problem.
UL
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From: Ashtabula
The testing that we did was not concussive . We were just trying to start, to gather some information , that we could use for our design work.
Air ducts will reduce rotor temperatures between corners but they will not reduce operating or maximum temperatures . ( If the system is heat sinking ducting might help , this is why I would recommend duct outlet on the eye of the rotor and the caliper, of stock system)
Dave's car has air only going to center of rotor , outer shield is removed.
The day we tested Josh was lapping the fastest .
Prolene's petal height is not what we are normally experiencing . I was told by Al that his stock petal height , per specification by Honda was off ( he adjusted after Laguna) , and he felt he still had some air in the system . ( feel free to ask Al about petal height now.)
When we do more testing , we are hoping that we will be able to compare the same car with different drivers . We want to see how much difference , a properly operating system will show , being driven by different drivers with different abilities and different driving styles.
The concussions that we did draw from this day at this track were :
All the cars front rotor maximum temperatures , were close to the same temperature ( This tells us what pad we should recommend at the track for both stock system and our kit)
We feel strongly that the rear rotor problems are related to heat sinking , pads dragging or front brakes starting to over load.( you will note that Prolene is not running any ducting , he also was running straight vaned rotors , not the curved vane that we supply in our kit) The curved vane rotor is able to handle more heat and it pumps more air through the center of the rotor . The weight saving that we quote are with the curved vane rotors the straight vain on Prolene's car are about 2# lighter each.
We knew that the two piece rotor would move less heat into the hub area . ( this was verified easily )
We were very interested in the rear rotor temperature of our light weight rotor ( we were pleasantly surprised by its performance )
We wanted some one to try our #3 pad in a stock system comparing them , to their existing racing pads . ( We know that our #3 pad does not wear the rotor , like other racing pads , but the driver has to experience the feel, to appreciate its performance) ask Josh his feelings on #3 pad.
The temperatures that we tested on these three cars , are consistent with the temperatures that my car was running at Nelson Ledges Race track in Ohio .
Jason is willing to let us add his brake information to the collection . As the weather in the mid west warms up we will collect more data and post the information .
I am very interested in checking a car with a duct and sheild on one side and no shield or duct on the other , ( this will take the driver issue out of the equation )
Matching pads , to drivers use of the brake system , is the reason that much of the testing is being done . We also want to test some auto cross cars with stock systems , to evaluate pad applications.
I have over 9,000 miles on the " mule" and I have only changed the pads from racing pads , to hot street at 8,000 miles ( reason , dust and noise) . The front rotors were perfectly smooth ( like glass after removing the #3 racing pad ) all I did was slip in street pads and drive off.
Next time that I test at the track I will be gathering more temperatures at different places . Warren ( the Brake Man ) only needs to know rotor temperatures , this tells him what pad to use and if the brake system is working correctly .
Before we built the light weight rear rotor , my first testing at the track in Ohio ,was to determine if a light weight rotor would be able to hold up . One we determined that the stock rear rotor was not a problem, with a properly operating front system , we went ahead . We are very pleased with the results of the Button Willow runs on the rear rotor .
brad
Air ducts will reduce rotor temperatures between corners but they will not reduce operating or maximum temperatures . ( If the system is heat sinking ducting might help , this is why I would recommend duct outlet on the eye of the rotor and the caliper, of stock system)
Dave's car has air only going to center of rotor , outer shield is removed.
The day we tested Josh was lapping the fastest .
Prolene's petal height is not what we are normally experiencing . I was told by Al that his stock petal height , per specification by Honda was off ( he adjusted after Laguna) , and he felt he still had some air in the system . ( feel free to ask Al about petal height now.)
When we do more testing , we are hoping that we will be able to compare the same car with different drivers . We want to see how much difference , a properly operating system will show , being driven by different drivers with different abilities and different driving styles.
The concussions that we did draw from this day at this track were :
All the cars front rotor maximum temperatures , were close to the same temperature ( This tells us what pad we should recommend at the track for both stock system and our kit)
We feel strongly that the rear rotor problems are related to heat sinking , pads dragging or front brakes starting to over load.( you will note that Prolene is not running any ducting , he also was running straight vaned rotors , not the curved vane that we supply in our kit) The curved vane rotor is able to handle more heat and it pumps more air through the center of the rotor . The weight saving that we quote are with the curved vane rotors the straight vain on Prolene's car are about 2# lighter each.
We knew that the two piece rotor would move less heat into the hub area . ( this was verified easily )
We were very interested in the rear rotor temperature of our light weight rotor ( we were pleasantly surprised by its performance )
We wanted some one to try our #3 pad in a stock system comparing them , to their existing racing pads . ( We know that our #3 pad does not wear the rotor , like other racing pads , but the driver has to experience the feel, to appreciate its performance) ask Josh his feelings on #3 pad.
The temperatures that we tested on these three cars , are consistent with the temperatures that my car was running at Nelson Ledges Race track in Ohio .
Jason is willing to let us add his brake information to the collection . As the weather in the mid west warms up we will collect more data and post the information .
I am very interested in checking a car with a duct and sheild on one side and no shield or duct on the other , ( this will take the driver issue out of the equation )
Matching pads , to drivers use of the brake system , is the reason that much of the testing is being done . We also want to test some auto cross cars with stock systems , to evaluate pad applications.
I have over 9,000 miles on the " mule" and I have only changed the pads from racing pads , to hot street at 8,000 miles ( reason , dust and noise) . The front rotors were perfectly smooth ( like glass after removing the #3 racing pad ) all I did was slip in street pads and drive off.
Next time that I test at the track I will be gathering more temperatures at different places . Warren ( the Brake Man ) only needs to know rotor temperatures , this tells him what pad to use and if the brake system is working correctly .
Before we built the light weight rear rotor , my first testing at the track in Ohio ,was to determine if a light weight rotor would be able to hold up . One we determined that the stock rear rotor was not a problem, with a properly operating front system , we went ahead . We are very pleased with the results of the Button Willow runs on the rear rotor .
brad