With all the stories I've read on this board, and the old board, the stories ranging from Greg's fateful bang up in Scarlet I to Huytos recent spinout on an offramp have got me worried about the oversteer in the s2k. I've seent the whole oversteer discussion tossed around but in the end, is it predictable?

Maybe its a bit of an exaggeration, but it seems like to be totally safe with the s2k, you have to be constanlty driving it well within "safe" limits and be in total connection with the car and everything around (moreso than other cars). I guess my question is this- can you learn to deal with the understeer? Do you have to be Mario Andretti to really drive this thing? Thanks for any input you guys can give.

 

My view, for what its worth, is that the car is very safe so long as driven in a sensible way. Safe driving entails respecting the prevailing conditions the type of road, traffic, weather, surface etc. etc.

If you push the limits you will find grief - look at Grand Prix racing - more spins and offs during qualifying (really going for it) than in the race its self. Talking of which Grand Prix cars are supposed to be "state of the art" but they still oversteer and even more in the wet/cold!

Is there a message here people?

 

Another message - to safely explore the real limits of this fantastic car, take it out on the track or autocross course. You'll learn that the car can be driven fast, but like any other car it takes skill and technique to do so well. I bet Mario spent a LOT of time learning and practicing driving technique in his life. A question we should ask ourselves before pushing the limits, especially on the street, is how much time have you put in to developing your skills?

 

I'm expecting you all to disagree with me here but I feel the UNDERSTEER problem is the issue NOT oversteer.

Yes guys, the Stook does understeer as I'm sure all you AutoXers have experienced when trying to get quickly through the cones - the Stook will just plough on rather than turning. Now this is a problem not just at cone cutting speeds but anything under about 40mph. If you want to turn tightly the Stook is most reluctant to turn in and stay turned in at 9 or 10/10ths driving. If I look at my tyre wear by far the majority is on the outside edge of the front tyres where the Stook is trying to run wide in corners.

I have had the occasional back end spin out on me but nothing serious and generally caused by me rather than by any inherent vehicle trait.

This is why I won't go anywhere near a front sway bar - I don't want to exacerbate the understeering characteristics, I want to reduce them.

Over to you guys for comments - now that I have come out of the closet I'd like to hear from all the rest of you who have experienced understeer but have been reluctant to admit it.

 

Ditto CoralDoc. Very well Stated.

S2kturkey...I too have experienced the low speed understeer that you speak of. I think it occurs primarily when I pick up the throttle a little too aggressively before the apex. There's not enough torque down low to break the rear tires loose and help rotate the car, so the rearward weight transfer lightens up the fronts too much and the car understeers. I've tried a little more entry speed, along with picking the throttle up a little later, and it helps.

As for the S2K's oversteer characteristics, I believe it occurs primarily when trailing the throttle (lifting)in a corner. If my car didn't have this characteristic, I would be trying desperately to get it! It is a great handling trait to have when used properly.

For new guys exploring the limits, my advice is learn on a track, or autocross course. Start with reasonable entry speeds and maintain even throttle through the corners. If you come in with way too much entry speed and lift off the gas in the middle of the corner, or worse yet hit the brakes, this car will swap ends on you in a hurry! I think the car is forgiving and very comfortable to drive up to about 8 1/2 tenths. Beyond that you'd better be smooth, use proper technique, and pay very close attention.

 

...This is why I won't go anywhere near a front sway bar - I don't want to exacerbate the understeering characteristics, I want to reduce them. ...

Much of the interest in the thicker front sway bar seems to be from folks who don't autocross in SCCA stock class. The AS rules preclude changing any springs and the rear sway bar but you can change the shocks (dampers) F/R and the front bar. In other words most folks aren't faced with the same restrictions that the AS folks must live with. They have more options. I think that some investigation of the car would really help. With stock tires the car gets a very light inside rear. With race rubber it will lift it right off the ground. This is extra bad for the S2K since the LSD then instantly reverts to an open diff, cutting rear thrust which transfers weight off the back of the car. Depending upon when in the corner this tends to happen, this could be part of the snap oversteer issue and certainly doen't help corner exit speed. One of the magazines mentioned a rear suspension bushing concern. One of the things I would look into is the possibility that too much of the rear roll stiffness is provided by the rear sway bar. At least from the inside rear wheel lift pics I have seen, the rear sway bar is partly or largely responsible for lifting the inside rear. It doesn't look like the suspension travel has been used up. (Sometimes you can get a lift if you have dampers with inadequate travel. When they extend fully, the corner lifts if more extension is needed but not available.) It would be fun to eliminate the inside rear lightness, perhaps with stiffer rear springs in addition to any other compatible changes, which may include front suspension changes. Perhaps the rear bushes can be replaced too if they are part of the problem.

If you can fix the inside rear lift / snap oversteer then you can wind up with less understeer in the very slow stuff yet avoid or greatly reduce snap oversteer issues. Cars (especially those with even weight balances) corner faster when all four tires are used. Even FWD cars which lift an inside rear would corner better if all four were planted, but this would require additional rear suspension travel which can be difficult to achieve or indirectly against the rules.

Stan

 

Understeer with the S2000?! That's odd, I know that I've only had my S2000 for s short time, but so far I would say that this car had zero understeer (I know that there must be udersteer somewhre). I've been pushing the car pretty hard lately and so far I have not udersteered once ... each time I do some spirited driving I think to myself - "Where the hell is the understeer in this car?!" I just can't find it, the car has amazing front end grip .... and this is around slow corners, I feel I can get some understeer though some faster corners but not though the slow ones. I'm actually starting to get afraid of what will happen when I reach the understeer point ... will it snap the back out? will it never understeer and just go into overstear?

From my driving experience (and this involves a fair bit of track time) I have driven a fair few cars (CRX, Prelude, MR2 ('93 and '95 models), 300ZX, 200SX, HSV R8, Boxter2.5, Boxter2.7, BoxterS, 968CS, Elise, Z3 2.8, WRX, TVR Cimerra, Espirt Turbo ('85)) and S2000 has by far the least understeer from this lot. Maybe it has something to do with the 'driving style' - I've had a mid-engined car for the last 6 years or so my driving style would be more tailired for a mid-engined car (slowly getting used to the S2000). Though, the way I drive, I get no understeer at all. I get oversteer sometimes (even on entry to corners by lift-off/braking into them) but so far it was very progressive and controlable.

I have a feeling that the S2000 is just so well balanced (and neutral) that the characteristics of the car are dictated by the driver. If you drive to provoke udersteer then you'll get understeer. If you drive to provoke oversteer, then that is what you will get - oversteer. If you balance the driving style right in between then you'll get some 4-wheel drifting happening at the limit.

I'm just amazed that people have managed to udersteer the S2000, I'm sure that has to do with the driving style.

 

...Understeer with the S2000?! That's odd, I know that I've only had my S2000 for s short time, but so far I would say that this car had zero understeer (I know that there must be udersteer somewhre)...

ALL cars understeer increasingly heavily below some speed range. To some extent a car can be made neutral in a given speed/corner radius range. But it will tend toward some more understeer below this speed. And less understeer at higher speeds, although aero and other issues can overshadow this factor. For autocros we need the neutral range of speeds to occur at a much lower mph than what would work well on a high speed track. For example a neutral high speed car will plow like crazy in 20 MPH turns. And a superfast autocross setup optimized for say 25 to 35 MPH will probably be a handful over 100 MPH.

I strongly agree with your point about the driver...if you are experiencing excessive plow you must try to avoid entering slow corners too hot. In such a case if you enter a bit slower you will go through the middle of the corner faster and be able to apply power sooner and harder. Slow down to go faster in other words.

Stan

 

Stan, 'Neutrality' of a car does not have anything to do with the speed you're traveling but more with the 'attitide' you're dialing in with your driving. ie. where you are transfering the weight. Weight transfer can be achieved at any speed, though, you do need enough speed to actually produce a slide (at any given corner).

More about the high speed understeer - in fast corners you're always on the thottle (maybe not fully) and therefore you have a lot of the weight transfered to the back. Also, at high speed a car is less eager to change direction and hence the understeer. It's actually a good technique for getting though fast corners as you know that you can give it more power and the back will not step out - it'll just understeer more.

 

I hear so many guys saying that this car is so dangerous and spins out very easily.

First of all this is a sports car with hard suspension and low profile tires which takes the car to its limits on hard turns, so the driver has to know what the hell he's doing. Plus it has a LSD which will the break the rear end out if u get on the gas on turns.

So people have to understand some skills are required by this car and cars like this to be driven the way they're meant to be. I have had this car for 14 months and NEVER had any unexpected situations arise, in the rain, snow or dry, and I have done some crazy stuff in this car.

Newer drivers should get an idea of what the car is capable of rather than complain about the things that what makes this car what it is. I love this car, enjoy it