Safety of s2000- is the oversteer predictable?
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<<Stan, 'Neutrality' of a car does not have anything to do with the speed you're traveling but more with the 'attitide' you're dialing in with your driving. ie. where you are transfering the weight. Weight transfer can be achieved at any speed, though, you do need enough speed to actually produce a slide (at any given corner). >>
It's hard to be clear in a live message board format. Let me try again. I think we agree on nearly everything you are saying.
I like to look at turns as being comprised of three segments. The Entry, the corner itself or mid portion, and the exit. Let's take a look at the corner itself, the middle portion. In this middle part of the turn the steering wheel and pedals are fairly steady.
If you put a car on a skidpad of a given radius you can find it's max steady state cornering power. This can vary a bit if driver skill is high or low. For example in one test on a supra Al Unser JR. was able to pull 0ver .9 gs while normal folks could achieve only 0.85 or so. Let's ignore the drive for the moment and concentrate on the car.
Suppose you play with the car on a skidpad and change various settings, hard bits and so forth to achieve the highest possible speed on that pavement at that radius. The car will tend to be fairly neutral, perhaps tending toward slight oversteer.
If you now move to a much, much smaller radius skidpad, (and therefore lower vehicle speed) perhaps a circle painted closer into the the center, you will have MUCH more understeer. If you go to a much larger radius you will have less understeer, perhaps even some oversteer. At different skidpad radii there will tend to be somewhat different settings requirted for the best results. Achieving the best skidpad results does not mean that you are all set. Since we are ignoring transient cornering factors such as what happens if you suddenly lift, or hit a bump, or the first and last parts of real world corners. Not to mention that the car has to be driveable and controllable. Perhaps in varied weather conditions.
Again, we are ignoring transient effects and the entry / exit characteristics of the car in this example.
Stan
It's hard to be clear in a live message board format. Let me try again. I think we agree on nearly everything you are saying.
I like to look at turns as being comprised of three segments. The Entry, the corner itself or mid portion, and the exit. Let's take a look at the corner itself, the middle portion. In this middle part of the turn the steering wheel and pedals are fairly steady.
If you put a car on a skidpad of a given radius you can find it's max steady state cornering power. This can vary a bit if driver skill is high or low. For example in one test on a supra Al Unser JR. was able to pull 0ver .9 gs while normal folks could achieve only 0.85 or so. Let's ignore the drive for the moment and concentrate on the car.
Suppose you play with the car on a skidpad and change various settings, hard bits and so forth to achieve the highest possible speed on that pavement at that radius. The car will tend to be fairly neutral, perhaps tending toward slight oversteer.
If you now move to a much, much smaller radius skidpad, (and therefore lower vehicle speed) perhaps a circle painted closer into the the center, you will have MUCH more understeer. If you go to a much larger radius you will have less understeer, perhaps even some oversteer. At different skidpad radii there will tend to be somewhat different settings requirted for the best results. Achieving the best skidpad results does not mean that you are all set. Since we are ignoring transient cornering factors such as what happens if you suddenly lift, or hit a bump, or the first and last parts of real world corners. Not to mention that the car has to be driveable and controllable. Perhaps in varied weather conditions.
Again, we are ignoring transient effects and the entry / exit characteristics of the car in this example.
Stan
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From: Rochester, NY
[QUOTE]Originally posted by SlickS2k
[B]With all the stories I've read on this board, and the old board, the stories ranging from Greg's fateful bang up in Scarlet I to Huytos recent spinout on an offramp have got me worried about the oversteer in the s2k. I've seent the whole oversteer discussion tossed around but in the end, is it predictable?
[B]With all the stories I've read on this board, and the old board, the stories ranging from Greg's fateful bang up in Scarlet I to Huytos recent spinout on an offramp have got me worried about the oversteer in the s2k. I've seent the whole oversteer discussion tossed around but in the end, is it predictable?
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From: Denver CO
It's not a "quirk". It's the characteristics of a finely tuned high performance sports car with perfect weight distribution. Driving a car fast, especially through turns, requires skill. Unfortunately, the drivers ed courses we usually take to get a drivers license don't teach the types of skills required to drive this car fast through corners. Those types of skills can only be acquired through experience and instruction from others who know how to drive a sports car fast. If you aren't one of those people I suggest you take a high performance driving class or attend some track days where instructors will help you learn the techniques required to drive this car the way it is capable of being driven. You could rephrase your last statement to something more like "drive the s2k conservatively until you learn how to drive a high performance sports car and have learned the limits of this one in a safe environment like a race track."
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From: On the lakefront...
My ears were burning, so I have to chime in here, SlickS2k.
I think there is some misunderstanding as to the nature of my accident. My wreck was NOT caused by oversteer. It was caused by rock hard frozen S02's on a frozen road that also happened to be elevated above the Chicago river. There was a gentle turn in the road that exacerbated the situation and my wreck was caused by momentum, not by oversteer. Note there was NO snow on the road, it was just frozen cold at about -5 degrees MINUS the whind chill! There was no excessive speed or crazy driving...it was just extremely hostile conditions and I had the wrong equipment to be out driving.
In addition to the hostile conditions, the wreck was caused by the complete idiocy of the driver, I take complete responsibility and blame for two things, the decision to drive that night and the conditions that surrounded my car.
There was no oversteer. There was not an inappropriate application of throttle/brake/steering (except the part where I hit the wall...DOH!). There was simply no traction from the tires.
That said, I have been up and down the oversteer issue about 5 million times, but here goes again. I do think it's important that everyone has the whole story. IMO, the S2000 is no more prone to oversteer than is any other high performance car, that has a front engine/RWD combination which also has a 50/50 weight distribution. It's as simple as that...oversteer is INPUT-induced.
HOWEVER...
A few things come in to play. IMO the people who complain about the so-called tail-happiness are used to front wheel drive cars.
Also, people who run the car at autox tend to complain about it, as well. That means that tight, abrupt courses can bring out oversteer. Yes, that's true, inappropriate use (or misuse) of throttle, steering and/or brake also can brings oversteer out. I have spun the car at race tracks...and yes, it was predictable and I knew it even before I started to lose the tail...I have not lost the tail on the road. Ever...hmmm, maybe there's a lesson in there somehwere?!
I have several thousand miles on various racetracks with my dear Scarlet. I think I can speak with some authority on its handling characteristics. Despite what I just said, the S2000 handles beautifully at the limit. However, I think a few simple mods can make it handle absolutely maginificently. Chief among these mods is a thicker front sway bar. And if you track the car, if you find the car difficult to manage, then you can always remove the rear sway bar. Your call...
I have also found that the car will punish you if you dial in bad/abrupt/incorrect input. The car is NOT twitchy, the car is NOT sensitive...its DEMANDING. It requires your complete attention at the limit and when you do the wrong thing, it WILL punish you. It's a race car...and it requires you know it and understand it at the limit in order to extract all the goodness...
That's the bottom line...I think this summarizes my thoughts on the topic pretty well. Hope it wasn't too long, but I felt like I had to clear up a few things and give you guys my take on things at the same time.
Learn the car and take it to the limit...at the track!
[Edited by gregstevens on 01-19-2001 at 08:04 PM]
I think there is some misunderstanding as to the nature of my accident. My wreck was NOT caused by oversteer. It was caused by rock hard frozen S02's on a frozen road that also happened to be elevated above the Chicago river. There was a gentle turn in the road that exacerbated the situation and my wreck was caused by momentum, not by oversteer. Note there was NO snow on the road, it was just frozen cold at about -5 degrees MINUS the whind chill! There was no excessive speed or crazy driving...it was just extremely hostile conditions and I had the wrong equipment to be out driving.
In addition to the hostile conditions, the wreck was caused by the complete idiocy of the driver, I take complete responsibility and blame for two things, the decision to drive that night and the conditions that surrounded my car.
There was no oversteer. There was not an inappropriate application of throttle/brake/steering (except the part where I hit the wall...DOH!). There was simply no traction from the tires.
That said, I have been up and down the oversteer issue about 5 million times, but here goes again. I do think it's important that everyone has the whole story. IMO, the S2000 is no more prone to oversteer than is any other high performance car, that has a front engine/RWD combination which also has a 50/50 weight distribution. It's as simple as that...oversteer is INPUT-induced.
HOWEVER...
A few things come in to play. IMO the people who complain about the so-called tail-happiness are used to front wheel drive cars.
Also, people who run the car at autox tend to complain about it, as well. That means that tight, abrupt courses can bring out oversteer. Yes, that's true, inappropriate use (or misuse) of throttle, steering and/or brake also can brings oversteer out. I have spun the car at race tracks...and yes, it was predictable and I knew it even before I started to lose the tail...I have not lost the tail on the road. Ever...hmmm, maybe there's a lesson in there somehwere?!
I have several thousand miles on various racetracks with my dear Scarlet. I think I can speak with some authority on its handling characteristics. Despite what I just said, the S2000 handles beautifully at the limit. However, I think a few simple mods can make it handle absolutely maginificently. Chief among these mods is a thicker front sway bar. And if you track the car, if you find the car difficult to manage, then you can always remove the rear sway bar. Your call...
I have also found that the car will punish you if you dial in bad/abrupt/incorrect input. The car is NOT twitchy, the car is NOT sensitive...its DEMANDING. It requires your complete attention at the limit and when you do the wrong thing, it WILL punish you. It's a race car...and it requires you know it and understand it at the limit in order to extract all the goodness...
That's the bottom line...I think this summarizes my thoughts on the topic pretty well. Hope it wasn't too long, but I felt like I had to clear up a few things and give you guys my take on things at the same time.
Learn the car and take it to the limit...at the track!
[Edited by gregstevens on 01-19-2001 at 08:04 PM]
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From: Melbourne!
Well, I'm pleased to see we have stimulated some dialogue on this topic.
E30M3/DavidM/Allan, you all make some very good points. Greg, I particularly note your comment
"I have not lost the tail on the road. Ever...hmmm, maybe there's a lesson in there somewhere?!"
The simple facts for all of you guys who are not track experienced is that if you think you are going fast on the street (and I'm not talking straight lines here) then once you get on the track you will quickly realise in the following order
1). how much faster the other guys are going
2). how much faster you can go by driving smoothly and how much farther away the limits are if you do drive smoothly
3) how aware you are of potential hazards (or things that are likely to slow you down) and how you learn to deal with them
4). how the techniques you will learn in improving your track times are relevant to street drving
5). that you can never be seriously quick on the street (relative to the track) and it ain't worth pushing it to the point where you have no escape route if something goes wrong.
I think this is Gregs lesson'to us all.
E30M3/DavidM/Allan, you all make some very good points. Greg, I particularly note your comment
"I have not lost the tail on the road. Ever...hmmm, maybe there's a lesson in there somewhere?!"
The simple facts for all of you guys who are not track experienced is that if you think you are going fast on the street (and I'm not talking straight lines here) then once you get on the track you will quickly realise in the following order
1). how much faster the other guys are going
2). how much faster you can go by driving smoothly and how much farther away the limits are if you do drive smoothly
3) how aware you are of potential hazards (or things that are likely to slow you down) and how you learn to deal with them
4). how the techniques you will learn in improving your track times are relevant to street drving
5). that you can never be seriously quick on the street (relative to the track) and it ain't worth pushing it to the point where you have no escape route if something goes wrong.
I think this is Gregs lesson'to us all.
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Wow Greg, thanks so much for laying it out in that much detail! I was just feeling a little anxiety before picking up my s2k with all this talk of spinouts and stuff. I'm glad to see that there is such a tight community on this board and I hope to be joining the ranks of stook owners soon!