skipping though gears?
09-23-2014, 12:11 PM
#13
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While we can go back and forth on the merits or otherwise of skipping gears there are those who have posited that doing so mechanically "shocks" the engine - not fatally - but why would you?
Rosberg was skipping gears last weekend and look what happened to him
09-23-2014, 01:17 PM
#14
OP's original post doesn't make sense.
Only time I ever skip gears is when I'm letting off from a race (redlining 3rd, race is over, I'll just shift straight to 5th).
Otherwise there's never any point.
Only time I ever skip gears is when I'm letting off from a race (redlining 3rd, race is over, I'll just shift straight to 5th).
Otherwise there's never any point.
09-23-2014, 03:14 PM
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OP's original post does not make sense. 
Here are some posts by Billman on the subject. It follows a post with pictures on skip shifting synchros and the damage that occurs.
I did not find a comment Billman made once that double clutching on the S is unnecessary.
Billman:
Posted 07 June 2013 - 04:29 PM
I have had plenty of S2000 transmissions apart for this reason.
The gear that is skipped TO will have the engagement side of that gear collar beaten to death, just as xviper posted.
The input shaft should be slowed incrementally with each gear and not by skipping, and I assure you your syncros will burn up in addition to the gear collar if you skip shift.
This had been proven by many here including a Honda engineer named woodwork who used to post here regularly. You can search for his posts.
End quote.
james0933, on 08 June 2013 - 07:55 AM, said:
Rowing through the gear without engaging the clutch is still ok, correct? Or not ideal?
Billman:
Rowing the gear box slows the input shaft incrementally just as you would drive the car, and does NOT hurt the trans
Example: redline first, clutch in, shift 2-3-4, release clutch.
Rowing is the SAFE way to skip gears, as far as mechanicals are concerned.
I regularly row after getting on the freeway....wind out 3rd, row 4-5-6. Been doing it for 120k, and assure you it is safe for the trans.
End quote
Cosmo
Here are some posts by Billman on the subject. It follows a post with pictures on skip shifting synchros and the damage that occurs.
I did not find a comment Billman made once that double clutching on the S is unnecessary.
This topic has been beaten to death for over a decade. Every time someone new comes along and takes a course or does a Google search or has been "skip shifting" all his life, they "don't understand why it's such a bad thing". Sure, there are ways you can skip shift and do no harm but for the most part, not everyone is able to perform this simple task "properly", so the general advice is to not do it. To lead someone who doesn't understand the concept into believing it does no harm and it's OK to go ahead and skip shift with complete impunity is misleading and poor judgement. Sometimes, a little information is a bad thing.
The following are 2 pictures sent to me over 10 years ago from one of the head guys at Honda USA, who was in charge of their technical division in Torrence, California. That department received every single damaged part from every S2000 and NSX in N. America. I knew him for many years and he sent this to me to post up to show S2000 owners the dangers of skip shifting. As a representative of Honda USA, he could only post up so much, beyond which, he was not authorized to do so. What he did was to be the final say as to whether or not a customer would be denied warranty claims at the time based on the damage incurred and how it was incurred.
This first picture shows a "normal" syncro. Note the pointy ends to those metal strips .................
This next picture shows a damaged syncro from improper skip shifting. Note the points have all been shaved off and are flattened ................
Now that most warranties are gone on S2000s today anyway, there won't ever be an issue with it being covered or denied. It's on your nickel, so please skip shift all you like. I'm sure everyone will know exactly how to do it right so this kind of damage will never occur.
The following are 2 pictures sent to me over 10 years ago from one of the head guys at Honda USA, who was in charge of their technical division in Torrence, California. That department received every single damaged part from every S2000 and NSX in N. America. I knew him for many years and he sent this to me to post up to show S2000 owners the dangers of skip shifting. As a representative of Honda USA, he could only post up so much, beyond which, he was not authorized to do so. What he did was to be the final say as to whether or not a customer would be denied warranty claims at the time based on the damage incurred and how it was incurred.
This first picture shows a "normal" syncro. Note the pointy ends to those metal strips .................
This next picture shows a damaged syncro from improper skip shifting. Note the points have all been shaved off and are flattened ................
Now that most warranties are gone on S2000s today anyway, there won't ever be an issue with it being covered or denied. It's on your nickel, so please skip shift all you like. I'm sure everyone will know exactly how to do it right so this kind of damage will never occur.
Billman:
Posted 07 June 2013 - 04:29 PM
I have had plenty of S2000 transmissions apart for this reason.
The gear that is skipped TO will have the engagement side of that gear collar beaten to death, just as xviper posted.
The input shaft should be slowed incrementally with each gear and not by skipping, and I assure you your syncros will burn up in addition to the gear collar if you skip shift.
This had been proven by many here including a Honda engineer named woodwork who used to post here regularly. You can search for his posts.
End quote.
james0933, on 08 June 2013 - 07:55 AM, said:
Rowing through the gear without engaging the clutch is still ok, correct? Or not ideal?
Billman:
Rowing the gear box slows the input shaft incrementally just as you would drive the car, and does NOT hurt the trans
Example: redline first, clutch in, shift 2-3-4, release clutch.
Rowing is the SAFE way to skip gears, as far as mechanicals are concerned.
I regularly row after getting on the freeway....wind out 3rd, row 4-5-6. Been doing it for 120k, and assure you it is safe for the trans.
End quote
Cosmo
09-23-2014, 05:21 PM
#17
09-23-2014, 06:27 PM
#18
09-24-2014, 01:52 AM
#19
What a pile of twaddle.
Will some of you gentlemen please tell me where the computer chip that tells your S engine & gearbox just which gear it was in last is found. It doesn't know, & I promise I won't tell it.
As the OP said, it is of no interest, & has no effect what gear the thing was last in, provided you match revs & road speed for the gear you wish to engage, your car will never know the difference. Going from 3Rd to 6Th at 60 MPH after an overtaking maneuver does mean you will have to pause in neutral for a short period as the revs drop, not a problem really.
For you kids, not lucky enough to have driven the original S600 with it's 11,000 rev limit, try it if ever you get the chance, they are brilliant. However you damn near need a cut lunch while you wait for the revs to drop, if you rev it out through the gears.
I raced F1, & F2S for some years. I held many lap records. In those days of proper gearboxes in racing cars, I & all the really competitive drivers did what you call skip shifts when going down. You can not brake with maximum efficiency when mucking about with all that fancy heel & toe stuff. You brake to the speed where you can engage the gear you want for the corner coming up without over revving, then select it with one quick rev matched change.
This was of course in gear boxes with dog engagement, no synchros to help. You got the revs perfect, or you did not get any gear, just a loud noise.
I have done a couple of races with no clutch at all. The operating system had failed in both races, one of which I won, it failed at the start. I did not even know the clutch had failed, until I attempted to stop, with the car still in gear at the end of the race. In both instances no damage could be detected when the boxes were stripped. Get your revs right & the clutch is as superfluous as rowing through gears. It is only essential when you want to stop in gear, or start.
If you can drive, skip change to your hearts content, if you can't row the gears, or buy an auto.
I can't believe that some people, having accelerated to the legal speed in second or third, then wear out the clutch, gear linkage pivots going from gear to gear, until they finally reach 6Th. Still if that is what floats your boat, go for it, it is after all, your car to do with as you chose.
Better still, stop meditating on your navel, & just go enjoy your car.
Will some of you gentlemen please tell me where the computer chip that tells your S engine & gearbox just which gear it was in last is found. It doesn't know, & I promise I won't tell it.
As the OP said, it is of no interest, & has no effect what gear the thing was last in, provided you match revs & road speed for the gear you wish to engage, your car will never know the difference. Going from 3Rd to 6Th at 60 MPH after an overtaking maneuver does mean you will have to pause in neutral for a short period as the revs drop, not a problem really.
For you kids, not lucky enough to have driven the original S600 with it's 11,000 rev limit, try it if ever you get the chance, they are brilliant. However you damn near need a cut lunch while you wait for the revs to drop, if you rev it out through the gears.
I raced F1, & F2S for some years. I held many lap records. In those days of proper gearboxes in racing cars, I & all the really competitive drivers did what you call skip shifts when going down. You can not brake with maximum efficiency when mucking about with all that fancy heel & toe stuff. You brake to the speed where you can engage the gear you want for the corner coming up without over revving, then select it with one quick rev matched change.
This was of course in gear boxes with dog engagement, no synchros to help. You got the revs perfect, or you did not get any gear, just a loud noise.
I have done a couple of races with no clutch at all. The operating system had failed in both races, one of which I won, it failed at the start. I did not even know the clutch had failed, until I attempted to stop, with the car still in gear at the end of the race. In both instances no damage could be detected when the boxes were stripped. Get your revs right & the clutch is as superfluous as rowing through gears. It is only essential when you want to stop in gear, or start.
If you can drive, skip change to your hearts content, if you can't row the gears, or buy an auto.
I can't believe that some people, having accelerated to the legal speed in second or third, then wear out the clutch, gear linkage pivots going from gear to gear, until they finally reach 6Th. Still if that is what floats your boat, go for it, it is after all, your car to do with as you chose.
Better still, stop meditating on your navel, & just go enjoy your car.
