slowing down w/ engine vs. brakes.
02-20-2001, 08:58 AM
#11
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Space - you're welcome!
Greg - totally agreed. Only reason to downchange is to be in the correct gear on exit for the corner. Perhaps I should have elaborated further with NOT using the gears for actually braking! That's what the brakes are for!
I did explain that you were doing more braking when bliping the throttle when h/t'ing - see....it's second nature to me now! I just went through the heel-toeing motions first. Didn't want to provide TOO much information all at once.
Of course, then there's always left foot braking (or trail braking as some call it), apexing, on and off camber corners, understeer, oversteer etc etc etc!
See kids...all the fun things you get to learn about on the track!
Greg - totally agreed. Only reason to downchange is to be in the correct gear on exit for the corner. Perhaps I should have elaborated further with NOT using the gears for actually braking! That's what the brakes are for!
I did explain that you were doing more braking when bliping the throttle when h/t'ing - see....it's second nature to me now! I just went through the heel-toeing motions first. Didn't want to provide TOO much information all at once.
Of course, then there's always left foot braking (or trail braking as some call it), apexing, on and off camber corners, understeer, oversteer etc etc etc!
See kids...all the fun things you get to learn about on the track!
02-20-2001, 09:07 AM
#12
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Originally posted by blackblack
Well, just considering the wear factor alone, ask yourself this question: what's easier/cheaper/faster to replace: brake pads or engine bits?
Well, just considering the wear factor alone, ask yourself this question: what's easier/cheaper/faster to replace: brake pads or engine bits?
I think somewhere in the heads of most poeple there is this thought that you shouldn't use the brakes for braking. Maybe it's because we were TOLD that sometime in our past... For me, I think it stems from having a grandfather and an uncle who were truck drivers, and from driving trucks and trailers on farms when I was younger. Whenever a hill is involved, you keep it in gear and let the drivetrain do the braking, mainly because "riding" the brakes on extended downhills can have dire consequences, up to and including fires and crashes, especially with some older vehicles. This also applies to most cars on extended downhills.
So anyway, I agree that with this car and most cars in performance driving and stop and go city driving/commuting that the brakes should be used for slowing the car, but that in general for extended, non-curvy downhills you might want to avoid "riding" the brakes and just leave it in gear in order to prevent overheating of the pads and fluid.
Not that I would ever chose a non-curvy road for driving my S2000!!!
02-20-2001, 09:36 AM
#13
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I agree with sime and greg on this one.
The only reason to downshift is to be ready to accelerate given the speed you are traveling.
Priceless advice from most skilled drivers is "slow in, fast out". Braking and downshifting should be completed before entering a turn. This will allow you to be on the gas, in the correct gear coming out of the corner. Unless you are trailbraking, in which case, you risk the backend stepping out on you as you begin to turn.
I always match revs is all driving situations, it makes sense and it also makes street driving a bit more "fun".
Brakes are cheaper than clutches and transmissions - use them accordingly.
The only reason to downshift is to be ready to accelerate given the speed you are traveling.
Priceless advice from most skilled drivers is "slow in, fast out". Braking and downshifting should be completed before entering a turn. This will allow you to be on the gas, in the correct gear coming out of the corner. Unless you are trailbraking, in which case, you risk the backend stepping out on you as you begin to turn.
I always match revs is all driving situations, it makes sense and it also makes street driving a bit more "fun".
Brakes are cheaper than clutches and transmissions - use them accordingly.
02-20-2001, 09:48 AM
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Originally posted by William
Honda Owner's Manual page 133
"When slowing down, you can get extra braking from the engine by shifting to a lower gear"
Honda Owner's Manual page 133
"When slowing down, you can get extra braking from the engine by shifting to a lower gear"
02-20-2001, 09:48 AM
#16
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Originally posted by William
Honda Owner's Manual page 133
"When slowing down, you can get extra braking from the engine by shifting to a lower gear"
Honda Owner's Manual page 133
"When slowing down, you can get extra braking from the engine by shifting to a lower gear"
Nice try, though!
02-20-2001, 10:03 AM
#17
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Sime:
Thank goodness somebody that can make some sense out of this blown-out-of-proportions story...
Because everybody littering the roads over here always 'ride the brakes' I tend to touch it as little as possible, just to make a point.
Anyway, I have always driven manuals and dislike automatics, because they don't slow down enough when you take your foot of the accelerator. I need to downshift to have complete control of the vehicle. If you touch the brakes you distort the cars dynamics (weight shifts to front) which affects steering (NEVER brake when turning - aaarrrrgggghhhhh) and reduces traction of the rear wheels.
I really have NEVER experienced or heard of any transmission or engine failure as a result of normal downshifting (braking on the engine), and where I come from virtually everybody drives a manual transmission!!!!
I think the story is nonsense!
Happy Downshifting!!
Thank goodness somebody that can make some sense out of this blown-out-of-proportions story...
Because everybody littering the roads over here always 'ride the brakes' I tend to touch it as little as possible, just to make a point.
Anyway, I have always driven manuals and dislike automatics, because they don't slow down enough when you take your foot of the accelerator. I need to downshift to have complete control of the vehicle. If you touch the brakes you distort the cars dynamics (weight shifts to front) which affects steering (NEVER brake when turning - aaarrrrgggghhhhh) and reduces traction of the rear wheels.
I really have NEVER experienced or heard of any transmission or engine failure as a result of normal downshifting (braking on the engine), and where I come from virtually everybody drives a manual transmission!!!!
I think the story is nonsense!
Happy Downshifting!!
02-20-2001, 10:13 AM
#18
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I think Siepel's explanation illustrates my feelings of discomfort the other day perfectly!
In my case, I wanted the lower gear when I came out of the turn but I also wanted to decrease speed. I guess I should note to those of you who think by now that I'm a total idiot that using the engine to decel was not my only way of slowing the car; it was more used in conjunction with the brakes. I found, when we stopped, that one reason for discomfort in the handling was tire underinflation (eek)! I could feel a difference after we stopped for air and wanted to test out the limits again, but a few slow moving cars (Mustangs...) held us all up and no one got to have any fun!
In any case, it looks like I have some learning to do...
In my case, I wanted the lower gear when I came out of the turn but I also wanted to decrease speed. I guess I should note to those of you who think by now that I'm a total idiot that using the engine to decel was not my only way of slowing the car; it was more used in conjunction with the brakes. I found, when we stopped, that one reason for discomfort in the handling was tire underinflation (eek)! I could feel a difference after we stopped for air and wanted to test out the limits again, but a few slow moving cars (Mustangs...) held us all up and no one got to have any fun!
In any case, it looks like I have some learning to do...
02-20-2001, 10:30 AM
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Yes, yes, there's a vast difference between ONLY using the engine/tranny to slow the car all the time, and downshifting (heel'n'toeing of course) in conjunction with the brakes when approaching a turn for example.
As always there's no one right answer, and there are obviously varying degrees to everything. Skill and practice make the difference.
Otherwise, wait a few years and get a clutchless manual tranny. No worries!
As always there's no one right answer, and there are obviously varying degrees to everything. Skill and practice make the difference.
Otherwise, wait a few years and get a clutchless manual tranny. No worries!
02-20-2001, 10:55 AM
#20
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Hmm, just curious...all these techiniques you guys are talking about, do you apply them to everyday driving (such as the braking and downshifting should be done before you enter a turn)? When I have to make a turn, I put it in neutral, brake, turn, put it back into gear and rev match...seems to work without a problem for me.