Sime

And don't forget that when you use the brakes, you are getting inertia reduction from all four corners of the car.

This is certainly WAY better than using the rear wheels only (through the transmission of a rear wheel drive car) as you will be 'pulling' the car to a stop. All the force is absorbed THROUGH the clutch, driveshafts and synchro's - not to mention the gears too. This is NOT good!

Peter(Siepel), you probably won't see a direct transmission failure of cars that primarily use the engine for downshifting - even in a manual transmission. There's a simple reason...... the vast majority of these cars are never driven 'hard' and they are never asked to do anything out of the ordinary. So, you are right in your observation.

However, in ANY car, placing stress on components that were not designed to accept continual stress is not a good thing. The braking system is not designed to 'support' the function of the transmission, nor is secondary to the transmission. I bet you that you will not find a dedicated race car that has ever been driven with engine/transmission braking! All race drivers that reach SCCA or equivalent standard MUST know how to heel/toe. It's like a pilot must do a pre-flight check of his/her plane before flight.....well, a race car driver MUST drive his/her car by being mechanically sympathetic to it. It will fall to bits, or he/she just won't be competitive - whichever comes first!

I can tell you now that there is NO WAY that a race car running in LeMans (ok ....clutchless sequential tranny in most) or even Sebring (vette's, mustangs etc) could survive the race distance with drivetrains intact IF they relied on engine braking to slow the car. That just wouldn't happen. The crew chief would have the drivers gonads for breakfast!

As the Honda is a performance-oriented 'sports' car, I would err on the side/methodology that the racers (including myself I suppose!!!) take when driving. Heel- toeing.

Besides, despite the fact of the mechanical sympathy benefit that you will provide to your car, IT IS DOWNRIGHT FUN to do!!!! Plus with the VTEC, it sounds awesome too.

Learn it, drive fast, and I guarantee you that not only will you go be smoother, but your car will like you more and you'll get faster lap/course times. You'll be safer too!

What have you all got to lose by learning this technique??!!

viscreal2000

I'm sorry but if your not downshifting there is something wrong going on. When I was licensed at the track learning this technique was pretty much standard as for the aforementioned upset problem. I can't imagine going into a turn without downshifting just braking first then engaging. It seems kind of ludicrous to take away the one really great advantage this car has..it's 9,000 rpm rev band. That's why f1 cars have super high redlines and thats why we have six gears. Flexibility.You can't take advantage of powerband like that without downshifting. I guess this could come down to individual driver treatment but I think this is fundamentally incorrect.
That said, I think we are talking about 2 separate things. driving technique to make you fast and efficient and 2 wear on your driveline. These to me are VERY separate things. I did'nt plan on the clutch lasting for 100,000 miles. And I think no sports car should if your using it. My MR2 turbo went through 1 clutch at 60,000 miles. I downshifted everytime I drove it, and I never had premature wear. This is true for every car I have ever driven. I usually outlasted many a friends clutch replacement. Do we have any hard data on this.....it just seems incredible to me that i'm in the minority here! (:

TFota

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jay Li
[B]Hmm, just curious...all these techiniques you guys are talking about, do you apply them to everyday driving (such as the braking and downshifting should be done before you enter a turn)?

Tedster

I'll just throw an anecdote from racing history into this discussion:

Way back when (late 1950's?) when GM decided to show off the Corvette at Le Mans, they ran into a problem in this area. The relatively heavier Corvettes' brakes weren't up to the stress of repeated high-speed stops over the 24-hour period of the race. As the brakes lost effectiveness, the drivers had to start using engine braking. The engines began to overheat, and the 'Vettes wound up pitting to have the engines packed in ice on each lap.

I'm sure someone more knowledgeable will correct me if I've gotten anything wrong here...

Ted

Bobway

I have always downshifted along with using the brakes, and have always rev-matched to downshift. Never had to replace the clutch prematurely.

While it is carried over from the past (trucks going downhill), I don't think it constitutes enough extra wear and tear to tell me not to do it.

How else are you supposed to do it anyways? Putting the car in neutral and coasting is Illegal!!

Here is the Revised Code of Washington, probably similar to the State you live in:

RCW 46.61.630
Coasting prohibited.

(1) The driver of any motor vehicle when traveling upon a down grade shall
not coast with the gears of such vehicle in neutral.

(2) The driver of a commercial motor vehicle when traveling upon a down
grade shall not coast with the clutch disengaged.

[1965 ex.s. c 155

GTRPower

Hey people-

Sime, Greg, Meat-

I totally agree with y'all...

The rest of you...

Interesting thread. There are a couple of thoughts that came to me while reading this...

1. Driving to be efficient and fast vs. street driving. On an endurance race (or any race for that matter), parts longevity that last the duration of the race or longer is pertinent. Race drivers who don't understand that the car has to last the race in order to be around at the end to contest for the win usually don't get the checkered flags. Drivers in street cars should want to learn the same shifting and braking techniques as race car drivers for a couple of reasons- 1. racers are concerned with bringing the car back in one piece, and 2. racers are generally more aware of their surroundings. You want to emulate #1 because you don't want constant engine/transmission/ mechanical failures. I know point #2 does not sound like it matters in this discussion, but reading the roads properly will make you more aware, and safer for everyone. Since you have to read the road properly to be in the correct gear or brake in the right area, it will hopefully make you better. Shifting and braking correctly is a required skill for driving- I don't see how anyone can think it's optional. Of course, I don't recommend race style threshold braking on the streets- you will end up getting rear ended, but a similar, albeit more conservative braking style will work just fine on the street in most cases.

Neutral is for when the car is at a complete stop. You should never spend any time in neutral when the car is in motion. Even when heel/toeing, you should be in gear as long as possible- if the brake zone is long I usually shift down sequentially, even though I use a standard "H" pattern shifter. Of course, that's my personal style. I think many others just pop it into the appropriate gear when the brake/shift zone is right, and even then they don't leave it in neutral. Gears are for going-brakes for slowing, so when going, be in gear, and when slowing be in gear AND use the brakes (not the engine/trans) to slow down.

I know I feel better as a passenger in a car that is properly driven, because I know the driver is aware of his/her surroundings, and because I know the chances of being stranded due to a mechanical failure are significantly reduced! At least I wasn't with Greg when he ran out of gas after a day at the track!



[Edited by GTRPower on 02-20-2001 at 02:09 PM]

Sime

Nick - I agree wholeheatedly! I also am not a proponent of threshold braking on the street. When I say that I practice professional driving skills on the street, I mean to say that they must be diluted to suit your surroundings. Racetracks are more of a constant than the street. Attitudes must adjust accordingly.

For the others that am not sure what I have been illustrating in my previous posts, let me clear something up here.........

I am not saying that you shouldn't "downshift" as some people like to call it. What I am saying is that WHEN you downshift, you HAVE to match the revs to the new gear.

You do need to 'use the gears' in performance/racing driving. In fact, if you didn't, you would effectively be in too tall a gear exiting the corner, or in neutral - which is dangerous.

What I am trying to get across is that if you simply engage your clutch when you downshift without raising the revolutions, you are asking for trouble. This is NOT the way to do it as it will stress the transmission unduly. Proper heel-toeing DOES make use of the transmission, but it does it in such a way as to be mechanically sympathetic to the car. The aim is to get the car nicely settled before the turn in of the corner, and you are in the correct gear, and the car has the correct attitude/stance upon the exit.

Slower in, faster out is DEFINITELY the way to go here!

Hope this has explained things.

PS. Jay....I really hope that you are joking about putting the car into neutral and going around the corner! If you don't have power through the drivetrain, you induce unequal weight distribution over the car. You need either trailing throttle or on-throttle to settle the car, and, as Tfota says, to use the power if you need to mid corner.

As a matter of fact, I ALWAYS heel-toe on the road during everyday driving. It isn't tedious at all, and is very easy for me. What's more.....it comes as habitual/second nature so I don't even realize that I am doing it. As I said before, it adds SO much more to the driving experience.

All I camn say is that you will enjoy driving the S2000 SO MUCH MORE if you learn this technique. Obviously staying within the law, it makes you feel like a racing driver at every turn (oh, hang on....I am a licensed racing driver!!!!)

Anyway, you can still drive legally and practice professional driving (racing) skills. You can practice taking/creating a (corner) apex at 20 miles an hour! You don't need to be doing 100!

By the way, the only way for something to be habitual, is to consistently keep doing it day after day. This part of the driving equation is not something that you want to have to think hard about when on the racetrack. Really, heel-toeing is no more difficult than when you finally master driving a stick. Remember how when you first started driving how you thought to yourself "how in the hell am I going to match the clutch with the throttle, shift gears AND steer/brake the car?". It seemed daunting at first, but now we all do it without even thinking. Heel-toeing simply elevates your experience/learning curve that little bit higher.

Cheers,

[Edited by Sime on 02-20-2001 at 02:33 PM]

vmb

Does anyone else out there heel&toe different than how it was explained above? I pivot my foot on the brake and blip the throttle with my heel. (ie. toes are pointing to the left) Makes sense- that's why the throttle pedal extends further down? Seems like Sime described his feet as pointing to the right. I've got a picture of "my" way in Alain Prost's "Competition Driving" book.

josh3io

[QUOTE]Originally posted by vmb
[B]Does anyone else out there heel&toe different than how it was explained above?

meat

I heel-toe all the time.

I use both methods depending on what my feet are doing. With the GSR, I have Momo pedals and my toes point almost straight up or alittle to the right because the pedals are close together.

On the S2000 I find myself with my toes pointed more left because the gap is wider and I have a small foot (size 9 shoe).