Snap oversteer
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From: London
Originally Posted by Cheese and Onion,Jan 18 2010, 09:41 AM
To the OP.
This is a question that is (rightfully) raised almost every week. And it always seems to recieve the same replies:
"You're either a driver, or your not" - "It's not the car, it's the driver"
The truth is:
The car snaps into oversteer, pure and simple.
Yes, you can learn it, tame it, adjust to its ways but the simple answer is that it is a snappy bugger that demands far more respect than almost any other contemporary rear drive sports car.
Miata's, Boxster's, Cayman's, Z4's, 370Z's, BMW 335's, Mustang's, Jaguars and Mercedes do not have this reputation, S2000's do and they do for good reason.
Be careful.
This is a question that is (rightfully) raised almost every week. And it always seems to recieve the same replies:
"You're either a driver, or your not" - "It's not the car, it's the driver"
The truth is:
The car snaps into oversteer, pure and simple.
Yes, you can learn it, tame it, adjust to its ways but the simple answer is that it is a snappy bugger that demands far more respect than almost any other contemporary rear drive sports car.
Miata's, Boxster's, Cayman's, Z4's, 370Z's, BMW 335's, Mustang's, Jaguars and Mercedes do not have this reputation, S2000's do and they do for good reason.
Be careful.
Good discussion and some very intelligent contributions. I'm finding the technical posts very informative and It'll help in my learning of this car.
It seems that lift off oversteer and the resultant weight shift is perhaps the main cause of the snap oversteer characteric of the car. Going against instinct and keep the throttle in will stop the car from spinning but it'll take some practice and getting used to.
Cheers
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It's usually that someone has thrown a car into a weight shift then "pulls the rug out" from the rear tires by an abrupt throttle input (whether it be on vs. off throttle).
If you don't throw the car (or let slopes of terrains put an angular moment on the car), then you won't get oversteer... no matter how aggressive you are on or off the throttle.
If you don't throw the car (or let slopes of terrains put an angular moment on the car), then you won't get oversteer... no matter how aggressive you are on or off the throttle.
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From: Windsor, CA
Those videos were very interesting. In some, you can actually see the weight shift that precedes the spin, from hitting the brakes or lifting or hitting a curb.
I wonder how many of those were actually on the stock suspension, though?
Anyway, I have to give respect to those of you in AP1s. It's a bigger challenge and there's no stability control safety net for street driving, either.
I wonder how many of those were actually on the stock suspension, though?
Anyway, I have to give respect to those of you in AP1s. It's a bigger challenge and there's no stability control safety net for street driving, either.
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From: Littleton, CO
All right, I'll play.
# 1 - VTEC transition initiated spin, lift exacerbated spin
# 2 - curb initiated, slow countersteer failed to catch it, lift sent it snapping back in
the opposite direction (you can see his right knee come up off the throttle at the end of the initial step out to the right)
# 3 - trailing throttle oversteer
# 4 - sound is a little rough but I am going to go with TTO, again
# 5 - sound is crap again, seeing as a donwshift was done, poor rev-matching
# 6 - again TTO, he lifts to initiate rotation with a lazy slide in the double-apex left and catches it by rolling back into the throttle but fails to get back into it soon enough after taking the same approach to the right-hander.
Not saying I couldn't make all the same mistakes, just having some fun. Educational stuff, thank-you for collecting.
# 1 - VTEC transition initiated spin, lift exacerbated spin
# 2 - curb initiated, slow countersteer failed to catch it, lift sent it snapping back in
the opposite direction (you can see his right knee come up off the throttle at the end of the initial step out to the right)
# 3 - trailing throttle oversteer
# 4 - sound is a little rough but I am going to go with TTO, again
# 5 - sound is crap again, seeing as a donwshift was done, poor rev-matching
# 6 - again TTO, he lifts to initiate rotation with a lazy slide in the double-apex left and catches it by rolling back into the throttle but fails to get back into it soon enough after taking the same approach to the right-hander.
Not saying I couldn't make all the same mistakes, just having some fun. Educational stuff, thank-you for collecting.
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From: Emmett
Originally Posted by CKit,Jan 18 2010, 11:35 AM
It's usually that someone has thrown a car into a weight shift then "pulls the rug out" from the rear tires by an abrupt throttle input (whether it be on vs. off throttle).
If you don't throw the car (or let slopes of terrains put an angular moment on the car), then you won't get oversteer... no matter how aggressive you are on or off the throttle.
If you don't throw the car (or let slopes of terrains put an angular moment on the car), then you won't get oversteer... no matter how aggressive you are on or off the throttle.
I would really like to see what a limited slip diff would do in the situation I was in.
I don't think I'm an abrupt driver but I really don't know.
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From: Caribbean - Trinidad
@s2kwhitepanama:
Yes, that is the best way. I can recall a little session in the wet I had in my car on a track with an instructor. There was a nice tight S and of course, it was wet. I was discovering just how much grip the S had in the wet (quite amazing really), then I felt the back go light. He screamed "throttle in" and for some reason I actually listened. What happened next was a miracle - the car danced through that S like a slalom skier and never missed a beat. I could actually feel the technique spoken of here. I don't know why I did it (right) and don't know that I will be able to do it again, as I am not regular enough on a track to have this become second nature. It takes balls. To the guys who do this without thinking - hats off - it must really be fun.
I need a bloody track! I don't think a tight autocross course can truly recreate what's going to happen at high speed though - i find throttle on oversteer to easy to provoke in the tighties.
Yes, that is the best way. I can recall a little session in the wet I had in my car on a track with an instructor. There was a nice tight S and of course, it was wet. I was discovering just how much grip the S had in the wet (quite amazing really), then I felt the back go light. He screamed "throttle in" and for some reason I actually listened. What happened next was a miracle - the car danced through that S like a slalom skier and never missed a beat. I could actually feel the technique spoken of here. I don't know why I did it (right) and don't know that I will be able to do it again, as I am not regular enough on a track to have this become second nature. It takes balls. To the guys who do this without thinking - hats off - it must really be fun.
I need a bloody track! I don't think a tight autocross course can truly recreate what's going to happen at high speed though - i find throttle on oversteer to easy to provoke in the tighties.
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Theoretically, when a car is cornering at the limit an abrupt lift will upset the balance and often cause the back end to get loose. The steering inputs can be buttery smooth, but that wont counteract physics of weight moving fore and aft at the limit of adhesion. If this were a corvette forum we could say the same thing about applying too much gas (the rear end will brake loose even while the steering inputs are smooth). But, it's a honda forum, so power oversteer is not part of the discussion (when traveling at the speeds you were going).
It's difficult to tell what is going on with the throttle in your first vid, but it doesnt look like you "threw" the car into the corner, rather the car was very close to/on the limit as you turned in (maybe a bit early?) and then you backed off the gas (to compensate for an early entry?), causing the rear tires to lose their grip. The save would have been to mash the gas and crack the wheel right (and then back left), but hey, that doesnt seem wise when you're going 100mph and staring at the boonies. I too have filled with my car with freshly cut grass and it smells awesome...
It's difficult to tell what is going on with the throttle in your first vid, but it doesnt look like you "threw" the car into the corner, rather the car was very close to/on the limit as you turned in (maybe a bit early?) and then you backed off the gas (to compensate for an early entry?), causing the rear tires to lose their grip. The save would have been to mash the gas and crack the wheel right (and then back left), but hey, that doesnt seem wise when you're going 100mph and staring at the boonies. I too have filled with my car with freshly cut grass and it smells awesome...
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great collection you've gathered for us, mikey stone, thanks.
on some of the vids, i can see the balance and shift of the car change for the most part and can anticipate (through the video's point of view) when the car is losing traction, but some of them (like video #4) it's so sudden.
this is a great thread.
on some of the vids, i can see the balance and shift of the car change for the most part and can anticipate (through the video's point of view) when the car is losing traction, but some of them (like video #4) it's so sudden.
this is a great thread.
