Speeding, test pipes, and morality
Registered User
Joined: Jun 2005
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From: unknown
Why anyone would remove a cat on a NA S2000 is beyond me. That is just flat out wrong. Now if the car was turbocharged I could see that....
Speeding is all the same to me. Whether its just a few over or nearly criminal, its all the same, a point on your record.
Speeding is all the same to me. Whether its just a few over or nearly criminal, its all the same, a point on your record.
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,063
Likes: 4
From: Durango, Colorado
Both speeding and removing the cat are what attorneys call "mallum prohibitum", meaning that these acts are wrong, purely because they are prohibited by civil authority. But not necessarily morally wrong.
Acts that are both morally wrong AND prohibited by civil authority (such as murder and burglary) are called "mallum mensea" by attorneys.
Basically, there is no true "moral issue" with either the speeding or the cat. I mean, who can cite a Bible passage that states "Thou shalt not exceed so many mph -- or Thou shalt not remove thy cat.?" Clearly, there isn't any. These are not MORAL issues. They are only LEGAL ones.
There is a big difference. For example, speed limits are set by state Legislators and state employees. In my state, I know a bunch of these folks, and they are not the "best and brightest" we have to offer. What they decide may be "the law", but morally it means nothing. On some Interstates, the speed limits are set too low, as I mentioned above. And on some other highways and roads, they are set too high, IMO. But this has nothing to do with morality.
Acts that are both morally wrong AND prohibited by civil authority (such as murder and burglary) are called "mallum mensea" by attorneys.
Basically, there is no true "moral issue" with either the speeding or the cat. I mean, who can cite a Bible passage that states "Thou shalt not exceed so many mph -- or Thou shalt not remove thy cat.?" Clearly, there isn't any. These are not MORAL issues. They are only LEGAL ones.
There is a big difference. For example, speed limits are set by state Legislators and state employees. In my state, I know a bunch of these folks, and they are not the "best and brightest" we have to offer. What they decide may be "the law", but morally it means nothing. On some Interstates, the speed limits are set too low, as I mentioned above. And on some other highways and roads, they are set too high, IMO. But this has nothing to do with morality.
Registered User
Joined: Apr 2006
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I guess that the cat removal is worse than speeding for this reason:
When you speed, you MIGHT cause harm where speed was a factor.
When you drive without a cat, you create consistent excessive harm EVERY time you drive.
If I knew I would wreck each and every time I sped, I would not speed.
When you speed, you MIGHT cause harm where speed was a factor.
When you drive without a cat, you create consistent excessive harm EVERY time you drive.
If I knew I would wreck each and every time I sped, I would not speed.
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,749
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From: Santa Monica-SoCal
i get annoyed when people say to slow down and act like they drive only 10 over the speed limit. either your regions speed limits are very high or you're lying. you simple cannot drive a s2k slow and find it satisfying so stop acting high and mighty.
when i drive on the fwy, i go slow and in the middle lane. when i drive a curvy road late at night, i come close to doubling the limit. the difference is that risking the lives of others is not cool. late at night, the road is empty and i can see someone's headlights approaching from far away.
the test pipe is just polluting more than the car already does. imo, even if everyone drove hybrids, our earth is in serious environmental trouble. i don't have a test pipe, though.
when i drive on the fwy, i go slow and in the middle lane. when i drive a curvy road late at night, i come close to doubling the limit. the difference is that risking the lives of others is not cool. late at night, the road is empty and i can see someone's headlights approaching from far away.
the test pipe is just polluting more than the car already does. imo, even if everyone drove hybrids, our earth is in serious environmental trouble. i don't have a test pipe, though.
Registered User
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 22,888
Likes: 3
From: Covington WA, USA
This thread reveals a surprising amount of ignorance about the catalytic converter.
It has nothing to do with the ozone layer. It has nothing to do with long-term pollution or climate change. It's silly to say "the damage has already been done". The catalytic converter is mainly an anti-smog device. It helps with local, short-term air quality.
It has only a very small effect on performance and a very big effect on your contribution to smelly, smoggy air. Removing it is a very anti-social thing to do.
As for speeding, that can be more or less anti-social depending on how and where it is done.
But don't try to tell other people what they find satisfying. It's very egocentric to think that whatever you like, other people must like too.
By speeding you are increasing the risk to other people. By removing the cat you are harming their quality of life and health. Personally I think this is quite a bit more immoral than violating some of the stupid rules religions have, like honoring the sabbath day or praying to Mecca five times a day.
It has nothing to do with the ozone layer. It has nothing to do with long-term pollution or climate change. It's silly to say "the damage has already been done". The catalytic converter is mainly an anti-smog device. It helps with local, short-term air quality.
It has only a very small effect on performance and a very big effect on your contribution to smelly, smoggy air. Removing it is a very anti-social thing to do.
As for speeding, that can be more or less anti-social depending on how and where it is done.
you simple cannot drive a s2k slow and find it satisfying so stop acting high and mighty.
Basically, there is no true "moral issue" with either the speeding or the cat. I mean, who can cite a Bible passage that states "Thou shalt not exceed so many mph -- or Thou shalt not remove thy cat.?" Clearly, there isn't any. These are not MORAL issues. They are only LEGAL ones.
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,749
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From: Santa Monica-SoCal
please answer then, do you find it satisfying to drive at 35 mph? does anyone? what is that? 7k in 1 st gear? i did leave for the possibility that your limits are higher in your area.
Former Moderator
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 24,162
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From: Burlington, VT
I'm all about speeding - I don't feel right doing less than 80 MPH. I don't care what others think of me for doing it. I don't speed when it isn't safe to do so (this is based on my judgment of course), and I don't drive as quickly with a passenger in the car. When I have clear road, my foot is all in.
Frankly, I could care less if you have a test pipe or not. Gone are the days when millions of cars were cat-less. If a few modded cars around the world want to remove their cats, big deal. There are larger ecological problems we need to wrap our hands around first. We don't even 100% know whether pollution does all the bad stuff people have claimed.
Frankly, I could care less if you have a test pipe or not. Gone are the days when millions of cars were cat-less. If a few modded cars around the world want to remove their cats, big deal. There are larger ecological problems we need to wrap our hands around first. We don't even 100% know whether pollution does all the bad stuff people have claimed.
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 464
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From: Near Motown
It's not the act, its the unwillingness to take responsibility for the act that ticks me off.
Speed or not. But if you speed, don't whine about getting a speeding ticket! You have to be willing to pay to play.
Same with cat removal. If you remove the cat, and get cited for modification, or excessive noise -- your choice, live with it. Don't come post here asking "how do I get out of a ticket" or "how do I avoid another ticket".
Speed or not. But if you speed, don't whine about getting a speeding ticket! You have to be willing to pay to play.
Same with cat removal. If you remove the cat, and get cited for modification, or excessive noise -- your choice, live with it. Don't come post here asking "how do I get out of a ticket" or "how do I avoid another ticket".
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 247
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From: NC
When I was reading the other thread mentioned where the speeder got jumped on by the morality police, I almost posted a quick "chill out" response but didn't see the point in wasting my time.
I've seen the same "slow down" things in other forums. I'm not going to pass any judgements about how fast someone drives on the highway. My view is like Poindexter's, I like driving fast. Locally, I am usually right around the speed limit since that is where the limits are needed more for safety.
A blind man can see that 75-80% of highway drivers exceed the speed limit to some degree, surely including the people who set those limits. Drivers in general are voting for higher speed limits with their right feet every day. I don't think morality has much to do with it. As someone already mentioned, if people are so concerned about safety, we'd have speed governers on all cars at 70 mph. But that would reduce the amount of money various organizations can generate so I doubt we'll see that any time soon. There are many other laws that could be passed as well if safety was really the motivation for speed laws but that is for another discussion.
If you want to take some time to see an example of speed discussions that are right along the lines of what the OP is referring to, here are links to 2 threads from the same forum. The first is a friendly "look how fast I drove in my 993" thread. The second is a "you are an idiot for driving that fast in your 993" thread. I don't view either as good or bad, just interesting.
http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/show...ad.php?t=232749
http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/show...ad.php?t=320935
As for test pipes, I don't see the point. People are free to choose to spend their money on whatever they want, legal or not, moral or not, intelligent or not.
I've seen the same "slow down" things in other forums. I'm not going to pass any judgements about how fast someone drives on the highway. My view is like Poindexter's, I like driving fast. Locally, I am usually right around the speed limit since that is where the limits are needed more for safety.
A blind man can see that 75-80% of highway drivers exceed the speed limit to some degree, surely including the people who set those limits. Drivers in general are voting for higher speed limits with their right feet every day. I don't think morality has much to do with it. As someone already mentioned, if people are so concerned about safety, we'd have speed governers on all cars at 70 mph. But that would reduce the amount of money various organizations can generate so I doubt we'll see that any time soon. There are many other laws that could be passed as well if safety was really the motivation for speed laws but that is for another discussion.
If you want to take some time to see an example of speed discussions that are right along the lines of what the OP is referring to, here are links to 2 threads from the same forum. The first is a friendly "look how fast I drove in my 993" thread. The second is a "you are an idiot for driving that fast in your 993" thread. I don't view either as good or bad, just interesting.
http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/show...ad.php?t=232749
http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/show...ad.php?t=320935
As for test pipes, I don't see the point. People are free to choose to spend their money on whatever they want, legal or not, moral or not, intelligent or not.
