Spin Out
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From: Calgary
Originally Posted by mikegarrison,Jan 3 2008, 08:16 PM
Yeah, sure. But you can do lap after lap after lap and learn nothing, or you can have an instructor in the car and intensively learn a lot -- without crashing. Your choice.
When I was learning mountaineering, one of our instructors said, "Climbers aren't fallers". Meaning that even though you can't learn climbing by sitting on the couch, you need to not kill yourself either. I'll extend this: "drivers aren't crashers". Most of the best track drivers I know have crashed a car -- once. Maybe. That doesn't mean they don't make mistakes. It means they pick and choose when to try things out, and when they do make mistakes they almost always correct them before they crash.
Racing is different, because when racing EVERYBODY can drive up to 95% of the limit. So if you want to win, you have to push even harder, and nobody can do that perfectly. And even then, if you crash a lot of race cars you a) don't win races and b) are soon looking for a new job.
When I was learning mountaineering, one of our instructors said, "Climbers aren't fallers". Meaning that even though you can't learn climbing by sitting on the couch, you need to not kill yourself either. I'll extend this: "drivers aren't crashers". Most of the best track drivers I know have crashed a car -- once. Maybe. That doesn't mean they don't make mistakes. It means they pick and choose when to try things out, and when they do make mistakes they almost always correct them before they crash.
Racing is different, because when racing EVERYBODY can drive up to 95% of the limit. So if you want to win, you have to push even harder, and nobody can do that perfectly. And even then, if you crash a lot of race cars you a) don't win races and b) are soon looking for a new job.
Only a fool wouldn't learn from their mistakes. But that shouldn't be turned around to say that the ONLY way to learn is by making mistakes. There are plenty of ways to learn and instruction from others who know is the best way to build a foundation. The real key to exceeding the 95% performance (as you put it) is to create the driving foundations, build upon them with real seat time, then to learn the limits in a controlled, safer environment. It's the culminanation of all these things that makes a very good driver.
From some of the points you said in the quoted post you obviously recognize that mistakes are a part of learning and training, there are just ways to minimize the effect of them. I'm with you there
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From: Dry Branch
I agree. You can't learn the limits of a car without exceeding them, but that's NOT where one starts out on the path to becoming a better (or even a good) driver.
Haha, I agree with everybody.
Haha, I agree with everybody.
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It's a similar analogy in learning a piece of music on a guitar / piano / whatever.
You start slow and when you master the routine, THEN you speed it up... little by little.
You don't just start barrelling down the sheet of music and shrug your shoulders as you train wreck. "Oh well, I got through 6 lines of music before wrecking... and yesterday I only got through 4! By the end of the week I might make it to the end! Yippee!"
You start slow and when you master the routine, THEN you speed it up... little by little.
You don't just start barrelling down the sheet of music and shrug your shoulders as you train wreck. "Oh well, I got through 6 lines of music before wrecking... and yesterday I only got through 4! By the end of the week I might make it to the end! Yippee!"
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I was delievering a brand new 81 Rolls Silver Spirit to a guy in Neb.. I looked down what i thought a sec to check a map ( pre nav days ), I looked up to see the tail gate of a mustang 2 ( bordom 0 ), i jerked the steering wheel hard left to avoid the stang.. then right to correct, the tail of the Rolls snapped out an the car started to spin, i corrected and caught the spin an aplied throttle and kept on truckin momma.. yes i was damn lucky.. but.. true story, didn't scratch the Rolls an not a hair outta place.. takes training, practice in training and alot of luck, but.. it wasn't nor since hasn't been my first nor last spin.. just the coolest where the car survived... and No, I didn't tell the dealership.. I just made sure the car passed all inspections that next day...
man's got to know his limitations
man's got to know his limitations
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Originally Posted by trinis2001,Jan 3 2008, 06:19 PM
But you go to a track, read a book and don't challenge yourself, don't ever spin out once, twice, three times so you learn to control it then anticipate it until you can catch it every time, and see how quickly you become "expert". If your definition of expert is someone who has never had a moment, never spun out or ran off, then I guess there are no experts eh? Even F1 drivers spin out and crash. Is it their fault? Unless hardware failed, most like yes. We are humans and not perfect. We will make mistakes, have lapses of judgment etc.
But experiencing something is one of the best ways to learn from it - better than reading it in a book. Nothing beats seat time (and all it entails - spins, offs, ec.) unless something has changed in the world of performance driving.
Your definition of "sucky drivers" sounds more like "stupid humans" to me. What skill set other than basic driving do you need to drive in a mall? I can be a sucky driver but very responsible and never endanger anyone or myself. I challenge myself (race track / AutoX)but just can't get it right. That is what a sucky driver is to me - not one that is irresponsible and downright dangerous. Those are just stupid and irresponsible.
But experiencing something is one of the best ways to learn from it - better than reading it in a book. Nothing beats seat time (and all it entails - spins, offs, ec.) unless something has changed in the world of performance driving.
Your definition of "sucky drivers" sounds more like "stupid humans" to me. What skill set other than basic driving do you need to drive in a mall? I can be a sucky driver but very responsible and never endanger anyone or myself. I challenge myself (race track / AutoX)but just can't get it right. That is what a sucky driver is to me - not one that is irresponsible and downright dangerous. Those are just stupid and irresponsible.
Defining sucky drivers, lol. I could give a rat's ... if the guy can corner at the limit and get the perfect drive out of a corner. Not with street cars anyway. We are in an endurance race that lasts for 200,000 or more miles and as many years as your heart can take. I just first stated that spining the S2000 while screwing around defined sucky driver for me. I assumed we were talking about the street.
The only things I have ran hard were sportbikes and karts. I haven't spun either of them
. You really see throttle control when the front tire on a bike starts sliding in a corner. Someone here talked about concentrating on driving. I remember surprising people by not knowing any of the businesses along the streets I rode my bike on every day. My focus was on riding and what was going on the street. I could describe in detail every part of the road and the traffic movements around me but not what was 25ft off the road. Nowdays, I am busy changing CD's in my S2000 and looking at the sights 
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From: Arlington, VA
I didn't read all of the posts here, but any time a driver gets into these tricky situations, a split-second decision can mean the difference between a good result and a really bad one, especially in a car like ours. The ability to make such decisions is as important as the action taken. I had only one really close call in my S (my fault) when I failed to look right crossing a highway. It almost cost me and my +1 our lives. A truck pulling a horse trailer was coming at me. I hit the gas big time and managed to get across. Not really sure how you teach this skill, however. It is experience in a way, but not totally. And if I'd been in a different car, the result might have not been the same, either. Thank you, Perkymobile!
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i wouldn't label someone as a bad driver for making a mistake. spinning on public roads happens, mistakes in judgement happen, as do mistakes due to cluelessness. what makes a good driver to me is someone who learns from these mistakes (including mistakes of others) and improves. if you screw around in a crowded area and make a mistake that kills someone, that doesn't make you bad driver, it makes you a bad human.
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From: Covington WA, USA
Originally Posted by MikeyCB,Jan 3 2008, 09:38 PM
From some of the points you said in the quoted post you obviously recognize that mistakes are a part of learning and training, there are just ways to minimize the effect of them. I'm with you there