throttle cable vs drive-by-wire
Joined: Nov 2012
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If this is ultimately a "'06+ or pre-'06?" question, get the '06+. Every week or two you read about somebody crashing their S due to no traction control, there's no sense to not have it on this car (it's not intrusive either, like it is on my Toyotas).
That, and tuning the '06+ is much easier if only to drop the VTEC engagement point. Moved mine up to 5100 RPM's (down from 6K) and there's no big bump, now it's just smooth power all through the mid range. It gets a lot louder when VTEC engages, but the dyno shows that I'm ~18-19 HP higher at the point that VTEC used to engage:
That, and tuning the '06+ is much easier if only to drop the VTEC engagement point. Moved mine up to 5100 RPM's (down from 6K) and there's no big bump, now it's just smooth power all through the mid range. It gets a lot louder when VTEC engages, but the dyno shows that I'm ~18-19 HP higher at the point that VTEC used to engage:
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Joined: Feb 2002
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From: austin
Originally Posted by boofer,Mar 12 2009, 07:17 AM
if you want to see one that's done poorly, drive a 2004-2008 acura TSX...one of the worst, vague throttles i've ever experienced.
I clicked on this thread specifically because my only experience with a manual transmission and DBW is in my 2005 TC. it is HILARIOUS. Took me like a month to get used to the lag. It is highly irritating.
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 8,751
Likes: 1,856
You just resurrected it, but its not clear why. What is your point?
But since its been resurrected...
Most blame the dbw dead throttle feeling on electronic 'delays' between pedal and butterfly. In truth the response is actually quite quick. I believe the real culprit is the throttle maps used. This would also explain why throttle response can vary so greatly even between two car models from same manufacturer using the same dbw system using the same electronic and electromechanical components.
Its the tune, not the parts.
With a cable, the movement of butterfly is roughly in direct proportion to pedal movement. A given amount of throttle increase results in a given amount of butterfly movement, regardless of what rpm or of where along the travel (from throttle closed to throttle nearly pegged).
That motion is non linear only in the amount of snail or cam shapedness of the throttle body cradle the cable nests in (which on our cars appears to be pretty much round, so near zero nonlinearity), and any effects of how the lever arm on the pedal that pulls on the cable might change as it travels through its arc (which again is probably near zero nonlinearly).
Compare that to the throttle map in the '06+ cars. The factory map as found in Flashpro shows the throttle sensitivity is very nonlinear, and varies with rpm. The manner in which its nonlinear is telling. Its very dead at lower throttle pedal position, and subsequently becomes much more sensitive the more the pedal is pressed. To the point that often at 70% throttle pedal, the butterfly is already 100% open!
The effect is a car that in just driving around feels lazy. There is not a feeling of precise throttle response. Press the pedal a little more, like to speed up a little on the highway, and...almost nothing happens. It forces you to learn to press a lot more.
When you are really hooning it, like on the track, where its actually MORE sensitive, its just going to feel off, as its not a direct, linear relationship between your foot and the butterfly. This will be especially noticeable in on off transitions.
Why did they do this, and is there anything you can do about it?
Who knows why. My guess is to make the car easier for non enthusiasts to drive it. To make it less intimidating. Also make it easier to take off from a stop.
The good news is yes you can do something about it. Simply get Flashpro, and adjust the throttle maps to be more linear. You can make it 100% linear if you want, and you can make it independent of rpm if you want.
Personally I prefer a little less sensitivity at the lower pedal position at low speed, so its a little easier to take off from a stop. But I really like the feeling of throttle response while driving around, and strongly prefer linear reponse to throttle on off throughout the range used in driving.
So I setup my Flashpro throttle map to be pretty much linear above about 3k rpm, and below that to be less sensitive. I don't drive below 3k rpm, and I only take off from a stop well below that rpm. So less sensitive for easy start, more linear for more cable like response during driving.
Of course, to make it so there is a smooth transition between linear and non linear I had to blend things, so it gets more linear the higher the rpm, until its pretty close to fully linear. That transition is all in by 4k rpm.
The stock map doesn't use the rpm table at all. It leaves that linear. Instead it makes use of throttle position table only, making that very non linear. I flipped that around, so only the rpm table is nonlinear, and position table is fully linear.
The two tables actually work together. The throttle position table generates a reference number, then that reference number is used in tbe rpm table to generate an actual butterfly throttle position percentage. Since the stock rpm table is fully linear, the reference number ends up as a defacto butterfly percentage.
To alter the stock behavior means juggling changes to the reference numbers from the first table with changes to the actual butterfly percentage in the next table. Its not simple, but not really all that difficult. Just makes you think a little.
You can take the Flashpro tune your tuner created, and leave all his work alone, and alter only the throttle map tables to tune throttle response to your liking. Most tuners (probably all tuners) leave these particular throttle map tables untouched.
So there is no downside here, other than the cost of Flashpro. Add a hfc and a Gernby tune, and you combine making your throttle respond how you want with the most cost effective power increase in all of S2k land.
But since its been resurrected...
Most blame the dbw dead throttle feeling on electronic 'delays' between pedal and butterfly. In truth the response is actually quite quick. I believe the real culprit is the throttle maps used. This would also explain why throttle response can vary so greatly even between two car models from same manufacturer using the same dbw system using the same electronic and electromechanical components.
Its the tune, not the parts.
With a cable, the movement of butterfly is roughly in direct proportion to pedal movement. A given amount of throttle increase results in a given amount of butterfly movement, regardless of what rpm or of where along the travel (from throttle closed to throttle nearly pegged).
That motion is non linear only in the amount of snail or cam shapedness of the throttle body cradle the cable nests in (which on our cars appears to be pretty much round, so near zero nonlinearity), and any effects of how the lever arm on the pedal that pulls on the cable might change as it travels through its arc (which again is probably near zero nonlinearly).
Compare that to the throttle map in the '06+ cars. The factory map as found in Flashpro shows the throttle sensitivity is very nonlinear, and varies with rpm. The manner in which its nonlinear is telling. Its very dead at lower throttle pedal position, and subsequently becomes much more sensitive the more the pedal is pressed. To the point that often at 70% throttle pedal, the butterfly is already 100% open!
The effect is a car that in just driving around feels lazy. There is not a feeling of precise throttle response. Press the pedal a little more, like to speed up a little on the highway, and...almost nothing happens. It forces you to learn to press a lot more.
When you are really hooning it, like on the track, where its actually MORE sensitive, its just going to feel off, as its not a direct, linear relationship between your foot and the butterfly. This will be especially noticeable in on off transitions.
Why did they do this, and is there anything you can do about it?
Who knows why. My guess is to make the car easier for non enthusiasts to drive it. To make it less intimidating. Also make it easier to take off from a stop.
The good news is yes you can do something about it. Simply get Flashpro, and adjust the throttle maps to be more linear. You can make it 100% linear if you want, and you can make it independent of rpm if you want.
Personally I prefer a little less sensitivity at the lower pedal position at low speed, so its a little easier to take off from a stop. But I really like the feeling of throttle response while driving around, and strongly prefer linear reponse to throttle on off throughout the range used in driving.
So I setup my Flashpro throttle map to be pretty much linear above about 3k rpm, and below that to be less sensitive. I don't drive below 3k rpm, and I only take off from a stop well below that rpm. So less sensitive for easy start, more linear for more cable like response during driving.
Of course, to make it so there is a smooth transition between linear and non linear I had to blend things, so it gets more linear the higher the rpm, until its pretty close to fully linear. That transition is all in by 4k rpm.
The stock map doesn't use the rpm table at all. It leaves that linear. Instead it makes use of throttle position table only, making that very non linear. I flipped that around, so only the rpm table is nonlinear, and position table is fully linear.
The two tables actually work together. The throttle position table generates a reference number, then that reference number is used in tbe rpm table to generate an actual butterfly throttle position percentage. Since the stock rpm table is fully linear, the reference number ends up as a defacto butterfly percentage.
To alter the stock behavior means juggling changes to the reference numbers from the first table with changes to the actual butterfly percentage in the next table. Its not simple, but not really all that difficult. Just makes you think a little.
You can take the Flashpro tune your tuner created, and leave all his work alone, and alter only the throttle map tables to tune throttle response to your liking. Most tuners (probably all tuners) leave these particular throttle map tables untouched.
So there is no downside here, other than the cost of Flashpro. Add a hfc and a Gernby tune, and you combine making your throttle respond how you want with the most cost effective power increase in all of S2k land.
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 621
Likes: 13
From: Mendota Heights, MN
I’m sure there are throttle amplifiers on the market as well. I’m running a AEM standalone so I can’t say I’m a good example but coming from years of doggy throttled DBW BMWs, we put in sprint boosters to eliminate any lag. It was touchy but you could turn them down so they weren’t so bad. Huge difference to get rid of the lag though. I put them on the last 4 cars.
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 8,751
Likes: 1,856
The S dbw does not have appreciable lag. It does have very damped throttle map, which is easily corrected with Flashpro.
With the stock map the first half or so of throttle 10% increase in pedal is like 5% or less increase in throttle.
Its not slow, its just less.
Get Flashpro,and you can make throttle 1:1 or anything you'd like.
With the stock map the first half or so of throttle 10% increase in pedal is like 5% or less increase in throttle.
Its not slow, its just less.
Get Flashpro,and you can make throttle 1:1 or anything you'd like.
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,176
Likes: 100
From: San Francisco
If this is ultimately a "'06+ or pre-'06?" question, get the '06+. Every week or two you read about somebody crashing their S due to no traction control, there's no sense to not have it on this car (it's not intrusive either, like it is on my Toyotas).
That, and tuning the '06+ is much easier if only to drop the VTEC engagement point. Moved mine up to 5100 RPM's (down from 6K) and there's no big bump, now it's just smooth power all through the mid range. It gets a lot louder when VTEC engages, but the dyno shows that I'm ~18-19 HP higher at the point that VTEC used to engage:
That, and tuning the '06+ is much easier if only to drop the VTEC engagement point. Moved mine up to 5100 RPM's (down from 6K) and there's no big bump, now it's just smooth power all through the mid range. It gets a lot louder when VTEC engages, but the dyno shows that I'm ~18-19 HP higher at the point that VTEC used to engage: