lupin,
Value for our money is the reality. The good track courses will give you more experience and should benefit your skills more. You can drive around cones till your tires are bald, but if no one is there to assess and hone your abilities, you end up losing the cost of the tires for little gain in skills.
Yes, repetition is a good tool, but it is only one tool. If you actually have a bad habit, the repetition will only reinforce it.
sousleau

 

To speak to a couple different topics here...

I agree with the original assessment, because our car is not forgiving. It takes a high level of skill to extract maximum performance from the car because it's not confidence-inspiring. Cars like the Boxster have been described as very forgiving, and easy to hop into and go fast.

On the other topic (of drivers' events or autocross.) I feel very strongly that autocross teaches you a few fundamentals at speeds that are more manageable, so you actually learn quicker. How many novice drivers are willing to drift the car at 100mph in 4th gear on a road course? None of them. But drifting in 2nd gear on an autocross course is a different story.

Many National level autocrossers have gone onto very successful road-racing careers, but whenever I have seen a successful road-racing driver try autocross, they have trouble. And to speak to someone's comment about not being able to guage your driving, that's simply not true. Being competitive events, you can try to catch better drivers in your same class at an autocross. Many of those same drivers will ride with you or let you ride with them to pick up pointers.

I just hate to see people dismissing autocross as a pointless excersise. Because of all the time I've spent autocrossing and working at becoming successful at the National level, whenever I get out on a road-course I have no problem lapping at competitive times, and getting the maximum out of the car. I can assure you guys, not very many people can get the maximum out of any car... most of them are professional racers. You owe it to yourself to ride with someone who can get the max out of a car to feel what it's like. I assure you there's allot more time out there than you think.

And don't worry... I understand that there are some people that derive great enjoyment from simply lapping a particular track, and that's great. But for those people who want to learn, the track is not the place to do it (unless it's a professional driver's school like Barber or Russell). Plus, I'm simply too competitive of a person to participate in a 'non-competitive' event... I like winning too much!

 

Jason,
Valid points. I did not want to dismiss autocross as pointless.
Driving around any course, cones, road, oval whatever, by yourself, without some sort of independent feedback, gives the driver less opportunity to learn and more opportunity to hard wire problems.
If you autocross with someone who can give you input either while or after you've driven, or if you can capture the data of the drive via electronic means (like video, digital still series, g-meter, etc [anybody have HUD tape?]) then you have the opportunity to learn from what you've done.
You are probably an excellent driver, and have reached the point where you can learn while you burn. Most of us are not that good.

Excellent point on being willing to risk losing it in a corner on an autocross, where we might be a little bit more cautious on the track.

You have given me much food for thought, and the motivation to get more into autocrossing.
Thanks.
sousleau

 

I agree, sousleau... feedback is very important. Most experienced autocrossers are very willing to help if you only ask for it. At local autocrosses, it pays to get involved and meet people at the events... and then just ask to ride along with them, or for them to ride with you. I see many people in our region run for years without getting feedback, while others are asking all the right questions... help is there as long as you ask for it!

 

Jason, you make an excellent case for autox'ing. I have done it a number of times and, as you are aware, it hasn't been the bright spot in my driving activities. Not becuase of the driving, but because of some other things that involve some rude people and tactless dillweeds that I wanted to smack. That being said, 99% of the people that I have met while autox'ing are excellent human beings. Most are very helpful folks and will go out of their way to help you learn...that is most evident in YOUR spirit and attitude, which I admire and respect. You obviously have displayed a tremendous penchant for autox'ing and you have my total respect for that, as well...

OK, let me offer a few things, since I have spent 15 full track days at Gingerman Raceway, lots of touring on 3 or 4 other road courses (which doesn't really count, but it's fun). The days at Gingerman were either driving schools or they were just a bunch of us whackjobs renting the place. To say that it is "not" competitive isn't really true. No, it's not bracketed, but tell me that racing around one of the best courses in the country against 911's, Vettes, Super 7's, M3's, Ferrari's and all kinds of race cars isn't competitive. That just isn't true in my experience. Yes, it's a different KIND of competition, but it's a VERY competitive atmosphere.

The issue that I have with autox'ing is seat time. The last autox I did I got 6 runs and each run was about oh, 40 seconds. That equals 240 seconds (or so) of actual time behind the wheel. Quite honestly, that's not very much time to learn much, IMO. Do you understand what I am saying? In the driving schools that I have done and the open track days that I have participated in, you spend 3-4 HOURS or more on the track behind the wheel with other cars racing around you. It's a wholly different experience than autox'ing. Both are fun, but both couldn't be more different. If your autox school hadn't taken place on a day where it was in the 30's, I would have done that. But have it some time when it's warm, my car doesn't roll when it gets into the 40's!

Moreover, on the road courses that I have done, there are groups of drivers broken down by skill/confidence level, which can present the atmosphere to learn at a less frantic or extreme pace.

With the addition of a lap timer, things get even more fun. That introduces another element of competition....

Anyway, I just wanted to throw my 2 yen in to the ring.

But to the original point. The key to getting the most out of the S2000 is being very smooth on your input. I wouldn't call the car twitchy or nervous or overly sensitive, I would call it unforgiving and it's most unforgiving when you are abrupt with your inputs. It rewards the good, but punishes the bad...but once you get over some of the idiosyncracies, either by modifying to reduce some of the oversteering tendencies the car naturaly has or you just learn to adapt to them, it is a demanding car to get the most out of...makes me do this every time I get behind the wheel ----->

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RicePimp


In comparison to lots of other cars it is harder to extract the maximum performance from an s2000. For one thing you have a small powerband up high and very little down low, so you will lose more speed compared to other cars if you spend too much time in the wrong gear. Also, like any light car, the back is fairly quick to come around. This can catch you off guard pretty quickly, and if your first instinct is to lift the throttle or even brake you will have problems. This is a harder car to push to its limits than most cars. But it can be driven faster than most cars pretty easily as well. Also to its credit the LSD and the lack of torque do make it a little harder to power the tail out by accident. [/QUOTE

I disagree. On the contrary this automobile handles very predictably. Traction is on a whole far better than most. There is more than adquate power over the entire range and can be driven quickly at any speed. Attention is required, until you become acustom to it's handling charterastics just as you would with any automobile. I've driven mine for over 11,000 miles in all types of situations without any of what you have described. I have no problem extracting every ounce of performance the stook has to offer. It's not a racer, it's a sports car. What you are saying is that you think it's more difficult to drive it quickly. Your way wrong! It's quite easy to drive the S2000 quickly and with a high degree of responsiveness. It's never felt unpredictable in anyway. What other cars?? This is entirely to general of a statement. I've not found many that can compare. I personally don't think you've really had much experience with the S2000. If you did, this wouldn't have come up as an issue. You describe the S2000 as almost and old H2 Kawaski. On, off performance. Again your way wrong. There's a kick with the VTEC but it's no way what I would describe as having a small powerband. You need to look at this video which will prove some of what I'm saying. A small power band is one of 2500rpm or less. Good usuable power is made from 4500 to 9000. This is not a small power band.

http://race.aplus.net/videos/S2000.mpeg

 

People have debated this issue over and over and over...

When I said:

I really meant the fun factor. In autoX, you're driving at the most 5 mins in an event. Drag strip is even worse, the faster you are, the less time you spend behind the wheels.

Now driving school is just too much fun. You're braking from higher speeds, drifting at higher speeds, and you spend HOURS behind the wheel in a weekend with around 50% of the time in WOT.

It's just awesome.. definitely more addictive than anything!

 

Jeff, wow, you really extract "every ounce of performance" out of your S2K? That's a pretty tall statement. Maybe you mean you go as fast as you want to? That's a different thing.

When you're racing (drag, Auto-X, or road-race) every ounce of perfromance means you finish ahead of or equal to an otherwise equally equipped car. It means nobody can jump in your car and turn a faster lap. Are you saying you'd match or beat anyone else driving a similar stook to yours? I could use instruction from "the best." Too bad you're not out racing with me to show me what I can do better.

I'm obviously in the camp that says the stock S2K is NOT an especially easy car to run at the limit. I don't think it is so terrible either but put me in a Boxter S or my old Integra and I feel more like a hero. People have mentioned more torque and handling issues. I'd add basic weight to the equation. The Miata is "easier" partly because if you make a mistake in your line it is easier to recover. People in those silly light cars talk about "tossing" it and playing "catch." Try that in a stook and you'll be looking at the wrong horizon before long.

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jeff
Good usuable power is made from 4500 to 9000.

 

I'd like to chime in on this. I think some people are saying the same thing without knowing it.

To the aggressive street driver, this may be one of the best cars to "get in and drive fast" The great handling, endless power and quick steering allow most people to reach 8/10ths pretty quickly.

On the track, be it autox or road course, finding the remaining 2/10ths is very hard. All the reasons listed above: neutral handling means understeer one corner and oversteer the next.

The boxter mentioned above may allow the driver to get to 9/10ths faster, though IMO that 9/10 will be a click behind the S2000 at 8/10ths (Boxter S does not count)

Regarding the road course vs. autox argument, it's a moot point. The only track on Oahu is poorly maintained and has little runoff. I would NEVER look for 9/10ths on this track with my street car. The car is too fast and the risk is too high. It's mostly autocross for me, manageable speeds, and the competative nature is what I like.