What Would Happen if No. 4 Cylinder Failed in Supercharged S2000?
01-11-2001, 02:41 PM
#11
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I know one thing:
If Comptech could work out a true overlapping warranty they could sell a TON of those superchargers.
I know for a fact I would buy one.
Without such an agreement..........no chance.
John
If Comptech could work out a true overlapping warranty they could sell a TON of those superchargers.
I know for a fact I would buy one.
Without such an agreement..........no chance.
John
01-11-2001, 03:35 PM
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We just spoke with one of our contacts at Honda NA about the #4 piston failure issue. According to his database, there have only been a few engine failures and all of those were caused by either lack of oil or a forced over-rev due to a missed shift. His database doesn't say which cylinder had the problems though. He did say that the engine will consume a fair amount of oil if you rev it to redline all the time. Consequently, if one were to visit the rev limiter regularly, but only check his oil every 7000 miles, he is likely to run into problems.
Based on my experience with race engines, it is normal to have oil consumption from high rpm's because things flex under those kinds of loads and oil will work it's way past. And when you look at the compression ratio and rpm range of the S2K engine it is just like a race engine.
So the bottom line is this, if there is a piston failure on a supercharged car, the only way it would be covered is if the fuel management ran too engine lean. And that type of failure would look different from the photos we saw of Jason's scuffed piston/cylinder wall. If the engine started running lean, it will suddenly start running poorly and probably start to detonate. The wise driver would immediatly let off the gas when this happens and take the car in to find out why. If this happens and the driver keeps his foot in it and runs it until something fails in the engine, he deserves to pay for the repairs. Just like in the human body, there are always warning signs before there is a catastrophic failure. One must heed the warnings before the failure happens.
Based on my experience with race engines, it is normal to have oil consumption from high rpm's because things flex under those kinds of loads and oil will work it's way past. And when you look at the compression ratio and rpm range of the S2K engine it is just like a race engine.
So the bottom line is this, if there is a piston failure on a supercharged car, the only way it would be covered is if the fuel management ran too engine lean. And that type of failure would look different from the photos we saw of Jason's scuffed piston/cylinder wall. If the engine started running lean, it will suddenly start running poorly and probably start to detonate. The wise driver would immediatly let off the gas when this happens and take the car in to find out why. If this happens and the driver keeps his foot in it and runs it until something fails in the engine, he deserves to pay for the repairs. Just like in the human body, there are always warning signs before there is a catastrophic failure. One must heed the warnings before the failure happens.
01-11-2001, 04:04 PM
#13
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Interesting thread...and Mike, you put it well.
And to Mike and Comptech's credit, there hasn't been a single engine failure on an NSX that sports a Comptech blower. That's a little off topic from the nature of this thread, but it's something to think about.
The compression ratio of the NSX is lower at 10.2, but still...it's a feat that should be noted.
Kudos to Comptech for a job well done on that. I'm watching this debate very closely...we may end up with one in the summer, I just want to see what other's experiences are. But I don't expect any issues, especially with such conservative psi.
Good job, Mike...
And to Mike and Comptech's credit, there hasn't been a single engine failure on an NSX that sports a Comptech blower. That's a little off topic from the nature of this thread, but it's something to think about.
The compression ratio of the NSX is lower at 10.2, but still...it's a feat that should be noted.
Kudos to Comptech for a job well done on that. I'm watching this debate very closely...we may end up with one in the summer, I just want to see what other's experiences are. But I don't expect any issues, especially with such conservative psi.
Good job, Mike...
01-11-2001, 04:15 PM
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Another thing to remember is that these failures are happening at very low mileage... 650, 1200 and 2200. If you are concerned, just wait until around 5k miles and then get the S/C. I agree with Greg's post. Mike & Comptech did an awesome job on the kit, and I don't think there should be a concern. People who buy the S/C kit already know they are losing their warranty. Just make sure your engine is good before getting the kit.
I'm going to try and contact Honda to track down some statistics on this - maybe there are just a certain # of cars that fail at low mileage and we're seeing more now because of the flood of new owners. I think it's too early to hit the panic button.
I'm going to try and contact Honda to track down some statistics on this - maybe there are just a certain # of cars that fail at low mileage and we're seeing more now because of the flood of new owners. I think it's too early to hit the panic button.
01-11-2001, 05:21 PM
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"there hasn't been a single engine failure on an NSX that sports a Comptech blower"
Greg,
How do you know that?
It is my understanding that comptech has said there have been not a single engine failure "caused" by the comptech blower.
This is a different meaning altogether.
As Mike said above..."The wise driver would immediatly let off the gas when this happens and take the car in to find out why. If this happens and the driver keeps his foot in it and runs it until something fails in the engine, he deserves to pay for the repairs."
What Mike is really saying is...."Our parts will not cause any engine failure if the driver does the right thing. Weather or not you did the right thing is solely up to Mikes discretion. If in his mind a lean burn situation can be caught quickly and engine failure avoided, then it follows that ANY engine failure is not the result of his product. Pretty crafty logic.
Sorry, don't mean to ruin anyones parade.
If someone here wants to pay 5k for some more power, and is not worried about a possible 11k engine swap, more power to 'em.
John
Greg,
How do you know that?
It is my understanding that comptech has said there have been not a single engine failure "caused" by the comptech blower.
This is a different meaning altogether.
As Mike said above..."The wise driver would immediatly let off the gas when this happens and take the car in to find out why. If this happens and the driver keeps his foot in it and runs it until something fails in the engine, he deserves to pay for the repairs."
What Mike is really saying is...."Our parts will not cause any engine failure if the driver does the right thing. Weather or not you did the right thing is solely up to Mikes discretion. If in his mind a lean burn situation can be caught quickly and engine failure avoided, then it follows that ANY engine failure is not the result of his product. Pretty crafty logic.
Sorry, don't mean to ruin anyones parade.
If someone here wants to pay 5k for some more power, and is not worried about a possible 11k engine swap, more power to 'em.
John
01-11-2001, 05:31 PM
#16
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JohnF, I know a ton of NSX owners up here and that is where I have heard this little tidbit. It seems to be common knowledge among the NSX crowd that this is the case. It wasn't from anyone at Comptech...
And yes, if you want to mince words, no NSX motor failure has been attributable to the Comptech s/c. That is a little different than saying that no NSX motor with a Comptech blower has ever failed. It's subtle, but your point is well taken...
I do a lot of events with the NSX club here, track time, monthly meetings, etc...they all speak highly of the Comptech blower. That is where my comments come from...just to be clear...
Hope that clears up what I said...
And yes, if you want to mince words, no NSX motor failure has been attributable to the Comptech s/c. That is a little different than saying that no NSX motor with a Comptech blower has ever failed. It's subtle, but your point is well taken...
I do a lot of events with the NSX club here, track time, monthly meetings, etc...they all speak highly of the Comptech blower. That is where my comments come from...just to be clear...
Hope that clears up what I said...
01-11-2001, 06:29 PM
#17
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Originally posted by Mike B at Comptech:
We just spoke with one of our contacts at Honda NA about the #4 piston failure issue. According to his database, there have only been a few engine failures and all of those were caused by either lack of oil or a forced over-rev due to a missed shift.
We just spoke with one of our contacts at Honda NA about the #4 piston failure issue. According to his database, there have only been a few engine failures and all of those were caused by either lack of oil or a forced over-rev due to a missed shift.
I'm an official wimp. 53. New to sports cars (unless you call an '88 Prelude 4ws and a '92 Prelude VTEC sports cars). doctor by trade. And a loyal Honda customer with five previous Honda car purchases ALL MANUAL transmissions.
So, if all the short block failures he knows about were "caused by either lack of oil or a forced over-rev" he doesn't have the facts.
Barry
[This message has been edited by Barry WY Silver/Black '01 (edited January 11, 2001).]
01-11-2001, 07:04 PM
#18
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Originally posted by Ldogdotcom:
cmnse...
What car that is supercharged is running such high compression? If you look at race motors (which have just as much technology as ours) if they are supercharged, turboed, whatever, they are running low compression (like the cars of the 70's). All I'm saying is that we have too high compression to have a reliable, long lasting motor if you supercharge it, regarless what companies say.
And lowering the compression to put on a supercharger? That's taking 2 steps backwards to take one forward. Our cars were designed with balance and poise in mind. Lowering compression to get 100 more horses is going against what the S2000 is. But if you want to... go ahead.
Just throw out any warranty. At all.
If you want a fast as hell car, you should have gotten a Mustang, slapped on a Kenne Bell supercharger, dropped it, put on 18s, Flowmasters and a Rousch Intake (with mild head work) and you'll have a car that will run circles around our prized S2000s.
To each his own.
cmnse...
What car that is supercharged is running such high compression? If you look at race motors (which have just as much technology as ours) if they are supercharged, turboed, whatever, they are running low compression (like the cars of the 70's). All I'm saying is that we have too high compression to have a reliable, long lasting motor if you supercharge it, regarless what companies say.
And lowering the compression to put on a supercharger? That's taking 2 steps backwards to take one forward. Our cars were designed with balance and poise in mind. Lowering compression to get 100 more horses is going against what the S2000 is. But if you want to... go ahead.
Just throw out any warranty. At all.
If you want a fast as hell car, you should have gotten a Mustang, slapped on a Kenne Bell supercharger, dropped it, put on 18s, Flowmasters and a Rousch Intake (with mild head work) and you'll have a car that will run circles around our prized S2000s.
To each his own.
Sure the ratio is reduced to help compensate for higher boost levels, but its common to strap on an aftermarket supercharger to a 10:1 or higher engine the NSX is a 10.2:1 ratio and Comptech seems to have had sucess with it? If we did have a lower comp ratio we could turn up the wick a bit more than 340.
More power = strain of course, Im sure sombody who gets a supercharger isnt planning on getting 300,000 mi out of the engine. Its all in the engineering.
If I wanted a fast as hell car, I certainly would not start with a mustang, lol.
[This message has been edited by cmnsnse (edited January 11, 2001).]
01-12-2001, 07:43 AM
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Barry WY,
I didn't speak directly with the guy at Honda. It was the boss and he passed the info on to me, so there may have been a bit lost in the translation. I also don't know how quickly their database gets updated.
To clarify the statement about our NSX s/c not having caused an engine failure, there was one car that had an engine problem. He had an engine bearing fail(rod bearing I think) and tried to blame it on the supercharger. Unfortunately, he was very low on oil and it looked like he hadn't changed it in quite some time. That failure was obviously a maintenance issue.
I didn't speak directly with the guy at Honda. It was the boss and he passed the info on to me, so there may have been a bit lost in the translation. I also don't know how quickly their database gets updated.
To clarify the statement about our NSX s/c not having caused an engine failure, there was one car that had an engine problem. He had an engine bearing fail(rod bearing I think) and tried to blame it on the supercharger. Unfortunately, he was very low on oil and it looked like he hadn't changed it in quite some time. That failure was obviously a maintenance issue.
01-12-2001, 08:46 AM
#20
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According to an insider at Honda there are a number of NSX engines which have died an early death as a result of boosting them beyond spec. I suspect that assigning blame to a specific part is what we are talking about in respect to attributed failures.
The SC does not touch any specific component but it radically changes the environment inside the engine. The atmospheric pressure at sea level is about 15 psi. A 3 psi boost is 20% boost in air pressure, it's not just 3 psi. A 20% increase in compression is a ratio of over 13:1.
It is almost impossible to blame failure on the SC unless it's running or adjusted poorly. The real question is what, as a persentage, proportion of supercharged NSX engines have failed during the course of their lives compared to those which have failed without the supercharger. This is the true measure and one you will not likely ever see published.
Failures directly attributed to the SC doesn't mean much. It's like saying noone has ever died from smoking. While the act of smoking never killed anyone, the long term effects of smoking can be proven to kill you earlier than not based on statistics. The same truth I suspect applies to supercharging.
[This message has been edited by cthree (edited January 12, 2001).]
The SC does not touch any specific component but it radically changes the environment inside the engine. The atmospheric pressure at sea level is about 15 psi. A 3 psi boost is 20% boost in air pressure, it's not just 3 psi. A 20% increase in compression is a ratio of over 13:1.
It is almost impossible to blame failure on the SC unless it's running or adjusted poorly. The real question is what, as a persentage, proportion of supercharged NSX engines have failed during the course of their lives compared to those which have failed without the supercharger. This is the true measure and one you will not likely ever see published.
Failures directly attributed to the SC doesn't mean much. It's like saying noone has ever died from smoking. While the act of smoking never killed anyone, the long term effects of smoking can be proven to kill you earlier than not based on statistics. The same truth I suspect applies to supercharging.
[This message has been edited by cthree (edited January 12, 2001).]