What's up with the modifications?!?
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...and the same thing for this guy:
Is anyone else dismayed at how these guys are unable to separate mere disagreement with "ram(mming) their opinion(s) down [someone's] throat." ???
Yes, and every participant here, including Bieg and myself is expressing opinions and nothing more. Even though that goes unsaid, we've ALL been saying that all along for the benefit of those who are incapable of dealing with other's opinions without thinking that its being rammed down their throat.
GTRPower got even MORE inflamed and claimed all he could hear was screaming despite no other participants being able to find evidence of that in the thread.
If you guys can't handle a debate then stay out of the forum. Go look up forum and its origins. Its all about debate and in a debate, people will disagree.
The only place there is no disagreement is in cults, dictatorships, etc. I guess that would be a happier, safer place for some of you guys?
Good work, nwk00, you've at least loosely defined a debate! However, nothing has "escalated" except the shrill cries of those who don't like disagreement.
The longer a debate, the better. Why? The greater the chance of each side having presented something to the other that the other has not considered. Thats called learning. Open-minded people do it all the time.
Close-minded people say "stop arguing!"
I am confident enough in myself and my decisions to open them up for debate. Are you? I am open-minded and level-headed enough to not only tolerate but welcome other opinions to hopefully learn and grow from them. Are you?
I think this is what gregstevens had in mind when he started the thread. I think he was interested in hearing both sides of it, and finding out of there are more than TWO sides to it. He either wanted to learn, or to be entertained. I think both are happening here, but it is constantly impeded by people crying "stop arguing!"
Just because we all own the same car here, doesn't make us automatically agree about everything else about it.
If we did, then we'd be a cult.
[Edited by SilverFog on 04-15-2001 at 03:27 PM]
Originally posted by nwk00
If people agree with me on my mods, great, I proved that we share the same taste, regardless whether it is good or bad. But if someone disagrees and tries to ram their opinion down my throat it is going to spoil my day to try to argue back.
If people agree with me on my mods, great, I proved that we share the same taste, regardless whether it is good or bad. But if someone disagrees and tries to ram their opinion down my throat it is going to spoil my day to try to argue back.
Originally posted by nwk00
What others say is only an opinion and nothing more.
What others say is only an opinion and nothing more.
GTRPower got even MORE inflamed and claimed all he could hear was screaming despite no other participants being able to find evidence of that in the thread.
If you guys can't handle a debate then stay out of the forum. Go look up forum and its origins. Its all about debate and in a debate, people will disagree.
The only place there is no disagreement is in cults, dictatorships, etc. I guess that would be a happier, safer place for some of you guys?
Originally posted by nwk00
The reason why this thread escalated to such a level is because both sides feel they need to justify their own actions to the other camp.
The reason why this thread escalated to such a level is because both sides feel they need to justify their own actions to the other camp.
The longer a debate, the better. Why? The greater the chance of each side having presented something to the other that the other has not considered. Thats called learning. Open-minded people do it all the time.
Close-minded people say "stop arguing!"
I am confident enough in myself and my decisions to open them up for debate. Are you? I am open-minded and level-headed enough to not only tolerate but welcome other opinions to hopefully learn and grow from them. Are you?
I think this is what gregstevens had in mind when he started the thread. I think he was interested in hearing both sides of it, and finding out of there are more than TWO sides to it. He either wanted to learn, or to be entertained. I think both are happening here, but it is constantly impeded by people crying "stop arguing!"
Just because we all own the same car here, doesn't make us automatically agree about everything else about it.
If we did, then we'd be a cult.
[Edited by SilverFog on 04-15-2001 at 03:27 PM]
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SilverFog, you weren't too happy with SCS2K's choice of words, but at the same time you are subtly tossing out some insults of your own. Some people may choose to mod their car to impress people or for the sound rather than pure performance, but why does that make their reasoning less valid? It doesn't. In fact, even Greg added the HKS exhaust, which sounds great but provides little or no performance gain.
Also, your example of the supercharger...it makes any performance mod invalidate the car then. If I added any mod, the Mustang could say, "That S2000 is good, but it needs an aftermarket filter/exhaust/intake/etc."
Also, your example of the supercharger...it makes any performance mod invalidate the car then. If I added any mod, the Mustang could say, "That S2000 is good, but it needs an aftermarket filter/exhaust/intake/etc."
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Well seems like it is only my turn now that you have track all the opposite parties down one by one. 
Well it is my opinion that the way that some ideas are put forward does seem like that. It is not the idea that I object to, but rather how the content is dished out. It is MY opinion that that's how it appears to me. Nobody sets the standard in how you perceive an opinion.
Yes, and every participant here, including Bieg and myself is expressing opinions and nothing more. Even though that goes unsaid, we've ALL been saying that all along for the benefit of those who are incapable of dealing with other's opinions without thinking that its being rammed down their throat.
If you guys can't handle a debate then stay out of the forum. Go look up forum and its origins. Its all about debate and in a debate, people will disagree.
I am trying to give my opinion here, it may be your perception that is wrong thinking I am incapable of dealing with other's opinion. I can accept their content just not the delivery sometimes. Delivery includes how the message is communicated and under what conditions. I was having problems with my Mugen ECU and posted on the board asking for help. And Bieg came in and said ,"Gee you would think with all those mods your car would run better than if you had just left it alone." Hey, he made a valid point at that point of time(the ECU problem was resolved later). But I think I was very disturbed by the fact that someone would make such a remark when a fellow S2000 owner was having problems. It didn't seem the right thing to do. So I was very against that remark at that point of time. I have never objected to anyone's posting a different opinion from me.
Good work, nwk00, you've at least loosely defined a debate! However, nothing has "escalated" except the shrill cries of those who don't like disagreement.
The longer a debate, the better. Why? The greater the chance of each side having presented something to the other that the other has not considered. Thats called learning. Open-minded people do it all the time.
Close-minded people say "stop arguing!"
I am confident enough in myself and my decisions to open them up for debate. Are you? I am open-minded and level-headed enough to not only tolerate but welcome other opinions to hopefully learn and grow from them. Are you?
I think the thread "escalated to such a level" because it has gone on for so long. And people are making remarks that I think is insulting to an individual. I never say debate is bad, I just don't like the tense atmosphere it is generating. That doesn't make me closeminded IMHO. Stop jumping to conclusions.
Originally posted by SilverFog
Is anyone else dismayed at how these guys are unable to separate mere disagreement with "ram(mming) their opinion(s) down [someone's] throat." ???
Originally posted by nwk00
If people agree with me on my mods, great, I proved that we share the same taste, regardless whether it is good or bad. But if someone disagrees and tries to ram their opinion down my throat it is going to spoil my day to try to argue back.
If people agree with me on my mods, great, I proved that we share the same taste, regardless whether it is good or bad. But if someone disagrees and tries to ram their opinion down my throat it is going to spoil my day to try to argue back.
Originally posted by nwk00
What others say is only an opinion and nothing more.
What others say is only an opinion and nothing more.
Originally posted by nwk00
The reason why this thread escalated to such a level is because both sides feel they need to justify their own actions to the other camp.
The reason why this thread escalated to such a level is because both sides feel they need to justify their own actions to the other camp.
The longer a debate, the better. Why? The greater the chance of each side having presented something to the other that the other has not considered. Thats called learning. Open-minded people do it all the time.
Close-minded people say "stop arguing!"
I am confident enough in myself and my decisions to open them up for debate. Are you? I am open-minded and level-headed enough to not only tolerate but welcome other opinions to hopefully learn and grow from them. Are you?
I think the thread "escalated to such a level" because it has gone on for so long. And people are making remarks that I think is insulting to an individual. I never say debate is bad, I just don't like the tense atmosphere it is generating. That doesn't make me closeminded IMHO. Stop jumping to conclusions.
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2X6, why must you persist in being an arrogant putz? "we can all snicker at greg..." Please. I never said that I got no performance gain for my 1000 dollars spent on the HKS exhaust. In fact, I got exactly what I expected...a nice kick, a little improved throttle response...nothing dramatic, but I didn't expect that, either. 
Bieg, let me explain a few things to you. I have been interested to see people's reaction to my posts now that MG Racing is building my car. But first of all, I've been 100% straight up with Giampiero about performance. If it doesn't improve it, it doesn't stay on the car. Only pieces which improve performance stay on the car. Moreover, I'm not into doing body kits and things that don't have any functional benefit. And given the nature of the relationship, as I have just described, I have no financial gain, investment or relationship with them.
In return, I'm asked to give honest and frank appraisals of the equipment that is supplied to me...and given that only things that benefit the performance of the car STAY on the car, you understand how I'm sponsored, yes, but I'm not beholden to them. So if you want to see an S2000 modified to eek out as much power and handling as possible, it might be good to look at my S2000. If you think that stock offers the best combination of power and handling, that's great. But as I have said, Honda did an absolutely stellar job with the car, but they left a few things out, as well.
Additionally, if you had taken the time to notice, I'm a moderator, yes. But I'm one of two moderators of a lonely little forum called S2KDays Asheville '01. So no grandstanding is necesary...and it's likely that I will go back no non-moderator status once the event takes place. So, sorry to blow holes in your 'sponsored moderator' (conspiracy) theory
As communities grow, relationships are forged. Partnerships develop and things change. And Jay is correct when he says that this board is a sponsor-supported site. The Internet has spawned this "it must be free of commercial input" attitude that frankly, just can't exist for too long before the resources that were previously supporting it dry up. I won't tell you the dollar amount that C3 spent on the servers and everything...that came ouf of his own pocket. It was a shitload of cash. The only way, besides charging each member (which is a bad idea, IMO) is to have sponsors foot the bill. Naturally as the S2000 has been out for two MY's now, there are lot of companies who have entered the fray to let their products stand or fall in the marketplace...and the conduit of choice to that marketplace is forums like this. Like it or not, it's how it works and I personally love to see the market at work. I LOVE choices. But that is not without its responisbilities for the members (or the "sheep" as they were referred to here). It's a caveat emptor environment, yes, but it's also an environment where you have the ability to ask questions to people who can tell you their honest answers...if you buy a crummy intake that loses power, you should have known better and I have absolutely no sympathy for you or anyone who does.
We're all grown ups here. People live and die by the decisions you make in your life and the goal is to make the best ones possible...I frankly couldn't care LESS about how people life their lives, the decisions they make or the things they do...BUT...I hold people accountable to those decisions. Live your life however the fvck you want to live it, just make sure you ass can cash that check your mouth just wrote...
And Bieg, the "puff piece" you insultingly call my thread about Giampiero was something that I thought members here would find interesting. Giampiero is a avid supporter of S2000online and s2ki, I thought many people (but not yourself, I now see) would be interested in knowing what kind of things he has done. Nothing more nothing less...but your myopia probably won't allow you to see that I was simply revealing a little about a person who has had more experience with racing and cars that many here could dream to have. And we're not just talking about winning some autocross once...open your eyes, per favore.
SF, I simply cannot see C3 making the choice to go on membership-fee type of arrangement. Listen, this is the core of the S2000 community, people want to have choices about the things they do to their S2000 and sponsors provide that. Your calling anything more than the banners on the bottom of each page "spam" simply is inaccurate. The fact is that you have the choice to open a thread or not open a thread. Spam is email that is delivered to you without your knowledge or consent. You are not comparing apples to apples here...
Running a site like this takes CASH. And sponsors have it and only those who want to support it do. I have acquired a ton of sponsors for S2KDays. They are all gracious and willing to help with the event and frankly, it wouldn't have been possible to have such a first class event as we are having without their participation. And the fact remains that only companies whose products are any good will last in a public marketplace...that's the "check and balance" of having an active core of owners and enthusiasts participate in a community like this...
My post here is already too long, but I have more to say...perhaps I will pick it up again later...
And thanks for the kudos, Tricks46...
[Edited by gregstevens on 04-15-2001 at 04:28 PM]
Bieg, let me explain a few things to you. I have been interested to see people's reaction to my posts now that MG Racing is building my car. But first of all, I've been 100% straight up with Giampiero about performance. If it doesn't improve it, it doesn't stay on the car. Only pieces which improve performance stay on the car. Moreover, I'm not into doing body kits and things that don't have any functional benefit. And given the nature of the relationship, as I have just described, I have no financial gain, investment or relationship with them.
In return, I'm asked to give honest and frank appraisals of the equipment that is supplied to me...and given that only things that benefit the performance of the car STAY on the car, you understand how I'm sponsored, yes, but I'm not beholden to them. So if you want to see an S2000 modified to eek out as much power and handling as possible, it might be good to look at my S2000. If you think that stock offers the best combination of power and handling, that's great. But as I have said, Honda did an absolutely stellar job with the car, but they left a few things out, as well.
Additionally, if you had taken the time to notice, I'm a moderator, yes. But I'm one of two moderators of a lonely little forum called S2KDays Asheville '01. So no grandstanding is necesary...and it's likely that I will go back no non-moderator status once the event takes place. So, sorry to blow holes in your 'sponsored moderator' (conspiracy) theory
As communities grow, relationships are forged. Partnerships develop and things change. And Jay is correct when he says that this board is a sponsor-supported site. The Internet has spawned this "it must be free of commercial input" attitude that frankly, just can't exist for too long before the resources that were previously supporting it dry up. I won't tell you the dollar amount that C3 spent on the servers and everything...that came ouf of his own pocket. It was a shitload of cash. The only way, besides charging each member (which is a bad idea, IMO) is to have sponsors foot the bill. Naturally as the S2000 has been out for two MY's now, there are lot of companies who have entered the fray to let their products stand or fall in the marketplace...and the conduit of choice to that marketplace is forums like this. Like it or not, it's how it works and I personally love to see the market at work. I LOVE choices. But that is not without its responisbilities for the members (or the "sheep" as they were referred to here). It's a caveat emptor environment, yes, but it's also an environment where you have the ability to ask questions to people who can tell you their honest answers...if you buy a crummy intake that loses power, you should have known better and I have absolutely no sympathy for you or anyone who does.
We're all grown ups here. People live and die by the decisions you make in your life and the goal is to make the best ones possible...I frankly couldn't care LESS about how people life their lives, the decisions they make or the things they do...BUT...I hold people accountable to those decisions. Live your life however the fvck you want to live it, just make sure you ass can cash that check your mouth just wrote...
And Bieg, the "puff piece" you insultingly call my thread about Giampiero was something that I thought members here would find interesting. Giampiero is a avid supporter of S2000online and s2ki, I thought many people (but not yourself, I now see) would be interested in knowing what kind of things he has done. Nothing more nothing less...but your myopia probably won't allow you to see that I was simply revealing a little about a person who has had more experience with racing and cars that many here could dream to have. And we're not just talking about winning some autocross once...open your eyes, per favore.
SF, I simply cannot see C3 making the choice to go on membership-fee type of arrangement. Listen, this is the core of the S2000 community, people want to have choices about the things they do to their S2000 and sponsors provide that. Your calling anything more than the banners on the bottom of each page "spam" simply is inaccurate. The fact is that you have the choice to open a thread or not open a thread. Spam is email that is delivered to you without your knowledge or consent. You are not comparing apples to apples here...
Running a site like this takes CASH. And sponsors have it and only those who want to support it do. I have acquired a ton of sponsors for S2KDays. They are all gracious and willing to help with the event and frankly, it wouldn't have been possible to have such a first class event as we are having without their participation. And the fact remains that only companies whose products are any good will last in a public marketplace...that's the "check and balance" of having an active core of owners and enthusiasts participate in a community like this...
My post here is already too long, but I have more to say...perhaps I will pick it up again later...
And thanks for the kudos, Tricks46...
[Edited by gregstevens on 04-15-2001 at 04:28 PM]
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I guess I'll have to let you guys argue the mod/no mod debate for now. It's looking like the debate may still be going on when my car has an ass again
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/aw-cgi/ebay...2918663&r=0&t=0
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/aw-cgi/ebay...2918663&r=0&t=0
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[QUOTE]Bieg, let me explain a few things to you. I have been interested to see people's reaction to my posts now that MG Racing is building my car. But first of all, I've been 100% straight up with Giampiero about performance. If it doesn't improve it, it doesn't stay on the car. Only pieces which improve performance stay on the car. Moreover, I'm not into doing body kits and things that don't have any functional benefit. And given the nature of the relationship, as I have just described, I have no financial gain, investment or relationship with them.
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From: On the lakefront...
Bieg, all I can say is that...oh fvck it, you're just too hardheaded to even HEAR what I have said. See my post above...I'm a moderator ONLY of the S2KDays forum. And what freaking difference does my being a moderator make anyway? And AS I SAID ABOVE...I'm probably going to return to NON-moderator status after Asheville.
Seriously, go out and drive and take some Viagra and relax a little. You remind of those little annoying dogs that nip around at your ankles, never hurting anyone, but just annoying as hell!
Geezus, give it a rest...I have been MORE than clear about the relationship that I have with MG Racing and if you don't like it, you know where you can put it. I'm not going to defend it again...and people should know me well enough that I'm going to be fair and honest.
Again, I DON'T BENEFIT FINANCIALLY FROM THE MODIFICATIONS THAT MG RACING AND I ARE DOING TO MY CAR.
There is no kickback based on how many whatevers people buy on my recommendations. I have never ever received one red penny from MG Racing. As I have said about a zillion times (but you refuse to see what is plainly written on your monitor), I evaluate the performance of the parts, make those recommendations public and people can buy that thing, NOT buy that thing or call me an asshole for liking it! I don't CARE! Your accusations are tiresome, inaccurate and misleading. You have been told the whole story and it is nothing more than that. I can't figure out what motivates you to slander me like this...I think you're just a bitter old curmudgeon with far too much time on your hands who likes to criticize people based on your knee jerk reactions to situations where you are willing only to accept half the information!
Please, leave me OUT of your world. It's dark and ugly in there...no thanks!
"Advertising treads"...hey, MG Racing is a freaking SPONSOR of THIS VERY SITE! Get it?! They have PAID for the right to make their products known. Man, you're just too dense to get it, aren't you? This is a SPONSOR SUPPORTED SITE.
Man, why am I even bothering with this?!
Seriously, go out and drive and take some Viagra and relax a little. You remind of those little annoying dogs that nip around at your ankles, never hurting anyone, but just annoying as hell!
Geezus, give it a rest...I have been MORE than clear about the relationship that I have with MG Racing and if you don't like it, you know where you can put it. I'm not going to defend it again...and people should know me well enough that I'm going to be fair and honest.
Again, I DON'T BENEFIT FINANCIALLY FROM THE MODIFICATIONS THAT MG RACING AND I ARE DOING TO MY CAR.
There is no kickback based on how many whatevers people buy on my recommendations. I have never ever received one red penny from MG Racing. As I have said about a zillion times (but you refuse to see what is plainly written on your monitor), I evaluate the performance of the parts, make those recommendations public and people can buy that thing, NOT buy that thing or call me an asshole for liking it! I don't CARE! Your accusations are tiresome, inaccurate and misleading. You have been told the whole story and it is nothing more than that. I can't figure out what motivates you to slander me like this...I think you're just a bitter old curmudgeon with far too much time on your hands who likes to criticize people based on your knee jerk reactions to situations where you are willing only to accept half the information!
Please, leave me OUT of your world. It's dark and ugly in there...no thanks!
"Advertising treads"...hey, MG Racing is a freaking SPONSOR of THIS VERY SITE! Get it?! They have PAID for the right to make their products known. Man, you're just too dense to get it, aren't you? This is a SPONSOR SUPPORTED SITE.
Man, why am I even bothering with this?!
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Again, I DON'T BENEFIT FINANCIALLY FROM THE MODIFICATIONS THAT MG RACING AND I ARE DOING TO MY CAR.
I am sure Giampiero doesn't need YOU to test his parts (unless he wants to see how they hold up if they are driven into a wall
). I thought they had their own S2000 and did extensive testing. Of course if he is looking for a supposedly independent party to PROMOTE his products in the USA (and on this forum) then that makes sense.As far as sponsors I am fine with them. They pay for their ad and if people are looking for an aftermarket part they click on the ads that are on EVERY page and off you go to their web site. What I (and others) don't appreciate are these constant little advertisements disguised as "threads". They are like those phony articles and reviews that are meant to look like the real thing but are really paid advertisements. Paying for an ad is one thing, paying for shills to hawk your products on the open forum with free parts is quite another.
Why don't you put a little disclaimer when you rave about these parts that you get them for free and that you can not be totally objective about them.