Why is it that there are so many...
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 93,305
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From: Nowhere
I think I've been misinterpreted...
Regarding the NSX, yeah it's expensive, mid-engined, etc, but I read into the comment that Honda doesn't know how to do a RWD vehicle. My fault on that one.
My point was that there are not many RWD cars out there in the same general price group, period - the S2000, Rustang, Camaro, Firebird, Vette, various BMWs, etc. And I agree, most of these will share the S2000's traits to SOME DEGREE. Power + RWD is a fun/nasty combo, depending on your experience with it, which is NONE for most people, and thus they get the nasty side and end up in a ditch. I learned on a RWD manual tranny truck with almost-bald tires, and did enough sliding around (some intentional, some not) that I had the nickname Fishtail for a while. I've found the S2000 to be a very controllable slide provided the surface is somewhat consistent, and you can swing the tail (tailwag if you like) all you want with the proper throttle & steering input. I don't drive the car hard enough regularly on the street to quantify bump-steer, nor do I want to, but I have experienced it and it's not a great deal of fun. And I've also experienced some SEVERE understeer which was even less fun, but it was a learning experience and I know it's there now. I wonder if those that have wrecked ever learned from the car, or if they simply pushed and pushed until it bit back?
Triple-H: Yes, I know sarcasm, I live by it (in person). But it's hard to pick up on based on text messages. I was making a point though, because what you sarcastically said has been seriously suggested before, and some people seem to be eager to get into it with other members.
Regarding the NSX, yeah it's expensive, mid-engined, etc, but I read into the comment that Honda doesn't know how to do a RWD vehicle. My fault on that one.
My point was that there are not many RWD cars out there in the same general price group, period - the S2000, Rustang, Camaro, Firebird, Vette, various BMWs, etc. And I agree, most of these will share the S2000's traits to SOME DEGREE. Power + RWD is a fun/nasty combo, depending on your experience with it, which is NONE for most people, and thus they get the nasty side and end up in a ditch. I learned on a RWD manual tranny truck with almost-bald tires, and did enough sliding around (some intentional, some not) that I had the nickname Fishtail for a while. I've found the S2000 to be a very controllable slide provided the surface is somewhat consistent, and you can swing the tail (tailwag if you like) all you want with the proper throttle & steering input. I don't drive the car hard enough regularly on the street to quantify bump-steer, nor do I want to, but I have experienced it and it's not a great deal of fun. And I've also experienced some SEVERE understeer which was even less fun, but it was a learning experience and I know it's there now. I wonder if those that have wrecked ever learned from the car, or if they simply pushed and pushed until it bit back?
Triple-H: Yes, I know sarcasm, I live by it (in person). But it's hard to pick up on based on text messages. I was making a point though, because what you sarcastically said has been seriously suggested before, and some people seem to be eager to get into it with other members.
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From: The BadLands
Sorry, here again I think we have some miscommunication. We have some commoniality in our thoughts. I was making a gereralized statement and not a specific one directed to you. Hope that clears this up for you.
Inexperience is a common denominator in all this. But people are more apt to blame the automobile than themselves first. Or at least wain from taking this point of observation. You've got to be willing to look at yourself first or in that direction first, if your going to learn. Sometime it's as easy as saying to yourself what did I forget to do this time. Call it, self-affirmation/evaluation. Either you did or you didn't! If you screwed up and had an accident why? How can I correct my actions next time to avoid it? I just don't know why that's so hard to do. I guess it's just fear??
Anyway it's not because the car just doesn't handle well for me! Or it's the querkiness of the handling either. It's our input that determines the outcome of the automobiles actions.
Inexperience is a common denominator in all this. But people are more apt to blame the automobile than themselves first. Or at least wain from taking this point of observation. You've got to be willing to look at yourself first or in that direction first, if your going to learn. Sometime it's as easy as saying to yourself what did I forget to do this time. Call it, self-affirmation/evaluation. Either you did or you didn't! If you screwed up and had an accident why? How can I correct my actions next time to avoid it? I just don't know why that's so hard to do. I guess it's just fear??
Anyway it's not because the car just doesn't handle well for me! Or it's the querkiness of the handling either. It's our input that determines the outcome of the automobiles actions.
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Joined: Oct 2000
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Mike Shuster-
Honda S2000 OEM shocks are not unusual in their tune.
The Mercedes Benz SLK also has a similar setup.
Just because the velocity of the shaft increases does not mean the shimstack will react to it in a positive manner. The faster acceleration of the shaft action, the quicker it "blows" and remains in that state until velocity of the shaft slows down to the point the shimstack can react with it and provide adequate damping forces.
Comparing a double/triple adjustable damper to an OEM damper, where the performance goals are nowhere near the same, is tenuous at best. I guess the best way to use your information and correllate it to my experiences would be to say that the elbow in the curve for the OEM shock would probably be very pronounced- that there is not that much interpolating between the intended damping action, and the stack blow-through. Ideally, the shimstack should be in control of the damping at all times- but real world conditions dictate that not to be possible, and a wheel that is not controlled by the shock, is a wheel that has a mind of it's own...
I haven't dynoed the OEM shock. I honestly don't need to- it's that far off from what I want out of it. For what it's worth, Jason, Juliann and Brad run Penskes on the autocross car.
Honda S2000 OEM shocks are not unusual in their tune.
The Mercedes Benz SLK also has a similar setup.
Just because the velocity of the shaft increases does not mean the shimstack will react to it in a positive manner. The faster acceleration of the shaft action, the quicker it "blows" and remains in that state until velocity of the shaft slows down to the point the shimstack can react with it and provide adequate damping forces.
Comparing a double/triple adjustable damper to an OEM damper, where the performance goals are nowhere near the same, is tenuous at best. I guess the best way to use your information and correllate it to my experiences would be to say that the elbow in the curve for the OEM shock would probably be very pronounced- that there is not that much interpolating between the intended damping action, and the stack blow-through. Ideally, the shimstack should be in control of the damping at all times- but real world conditions dictate that not to be possible, and a wheel that is not controlled by the shock, is a wheel that has a mind of it's own...
I haven't dynoed the OEM shock. I honestly don't need to- it's that far off from what I want out of it. For what it's worth, Jason, Juliann and Brad run Penskes on the autocross car.
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 45,737
Likes: 8,262
From: Mish-she-gan
This has turned into a really good thread. Thanks Nick, Jason, Mike, those two new NY ex-BMW guys (who started it) and that other NY guy (who keeps it fueled) and everyone else who kept this enlightening and informative.
Funny, I was reading an ad from a college on what they feel it takes to be an engineer. They should be creative, inquisitive, analytical, and detailed oriented. They should be able to work as part of a team and be able to communicate well, and I thought of this thread.
My first thought was I don't have what it takes to be an engineer. My second was that's why I respect and appreciate the opinions of those who do have those skill sets.
I don't have a great deal of experience in modern machines. I was driving an XKE at 160mph in France and Germany before most of you were born. Somehow I survived in spite of my youthfull explotes. With the exception of a few years I have always had a RWD sports car somewhere in the garage. I've driven Mosport, Road America, Waterford Hills, MidOhio, etc. but not in a racing mode (much as I had dreamed). I say all this simply in the way of background and to support the fact that I'm no engineer and never will be, no racer (my window of opportunity escaped me), but also no greenhorn.
I find the S2000 the most challenging car I've ever owned. The old saying slow in, fast out really seems to apply - at least for me - with this car. Maybe its old age creeping in. Maybe its experience. Maybe its the car. These are the things that interest me in this thread. Its a unique car and I love it. I don't feel like I've mastered it yet - not in the first summer of driving anyways. I look forward to next summer and track time. Keep up the testing and the feedback. I for one really appreciate it and will use it.
By the way, I toured the Viper plant today (saw the 2003 roadsters in pre-production mode). We heard the story about how Vipers are setup for high speed handling. Unlike most road cars that go straight when you take you hands off the wheel, they said the Viper is designed to pull to the right. But at a very high rate of speed they are steady as a rock. One of the take-'em-home managers was recently promoted after he wrecked his fourth one... the quide suggested that might be a career path. So there is hope for all of us.
Funny, I was reading an ad from a college on what they feel it takes to be an engineer. They should be creative, inquisitive, analytical, and detailed oriented. They should be able to work as part of a team and be able to communicate well, and I thought of this thread.
My first thought was I don't have what it takes to be an engineer. My second was that's why I respect and appreciate the opinions of those who do have those skill sets.
I don't have a great deal of experience in modern machines. I was driving an XKE at 160mph in France and Germany before most of you were born. Somehow I survived in spite of my youthfull explotes. With the exception of a few years I have always had a RWD sports car somewhere in the garage. I've driven Mosport, Road America, Waterford Hills, MidOhio, etc. but not in a racing mode (much as I had dreamed). I say all this simply in the way of background and to support the fact that I'm no engineer and never will be, no racer (my window of opportunity escaped me), but also no greenhorn.
I find the S2000 the most challenging car I've ever owned. The old saying slow in, fast out really seems to apply - at least for me - with this car. Maybe its old age creeping in. Maybe its experience. Maybe its the car. These are the things that interest me in this thread. Its a unique car and I love it. I don't feel like I've mastered it yet - not in the first summer of driving anyways. I look forward to next summer and track time. Keep up the testing and the feedback. I for one really appreciate it and will use it.
By the way, I toured the Viper plant today (saw the 2003 roadsters in pre-production mode). We heard the story about how Vipers are setup for high speed handling. Unlike most road cars that go straight when you take you hands off the wheel, they said the Viper is designed to pull to the right. But at a very high rate of speed they are steady as a rock. One of the take-'em-home managers was recently promoted after he wrecked his fourth one... the quide suggested that might be a career path. So there is hope for all of us.
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