****Warning for 2006-2009 owners (DBW cars)****
06-18-2016, 10:03 PM
#252
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Foothills East of Sacramento
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It sounds to me like the TCT noise: cards fluttering in bike spokes. It goes away when the engine warms up. There are some others here who are a bit more perceptive in sound identification. I am slightly surprised but not astonished that the TCT would start acting up so soon with your milage.
I would PM Billman and check into a new TCT of his and perhaps he can positively identify it. In any case, you will have to replace it sooner or later. I had no symptoms at 50K and put Billman's into mine.
I would PM Billman and check into a new TCT of his and perhaps he can positively identify it. In any case, you will have to replace it sooner or later. I had no symptoms at 50K and put Billman's into mine.
07-15-2016, 02:16 PM
#253
Registered User
I just had the valves checked and adjusted on my '06 AP2 with 30,500 mi on it. Some were a little loose- a thou or two, so they were adjusted to spec. For reference I bought the car about 22 months ago with 28,500 on it. It is a one owner before me, all stock, no mods. I wasn't sure if the valves had ever been checked so I had them checked as "insurance"
08-29-2016, 04:37 AM
#254
Registered User
I have an '06 with 65K on it. Owned 14 mos., no issues so far. Until last week, when the check engine light came on, went off, came on again. Took it to Honda dealer where I've had all my Hondas serviced for 15 years. Computer diagnostic showed codes for #2 misfire. Since swapping coils and plugs, didn't fix, they did a leak-down test and found 65-75% leakage on #2. Valve adjustment revealed that "valves are inspec at this time." Honda TechLine told the shop techs that the head needed to be replaced for valve damage. "Tech found that the stored history shows that the damage occurred after the car was running 55 seconds at an operating temperature of 172 degrees. Tech found that the RPMs were at 3951 at 18 mph causing damaage to the valves on cylinder #2."
In conversation, the service adviser said it was a bent valve, but they didn't get that specific in the summary. The consensus of the shop foreman, technician, and service adviser was that over-revving just after start-up or a missed shift did it. I am deeply troubled because it never occurred to me that I could damage the engine at just under 4K rpm. I would have to have missed a shift in first gear right out of the driveway, and I never shift then. I just leave it in first to the corner light, or if I'm going the other way, I shift into second. The only missed shifts I've ever had were third/fifth mis-shifts.
I'm posting this here because I am wondering if perhaps this is related to the problem Billman posted about.
This was a huge blow and I'm still not sure what we're going to do. We love the car. She looks brand-new and had a solid service history. For them to replace the head will be $6,050. We could do that, but it will certainly bite. But I'd feel a lot better about doing that if I knew what had happened and how to avoid it like the plague in future.
Some of you are very knowledgeable about this sort of thing. I'm just a person who loves driving a good sports car. Any enlightenment you experts want to throw my way would be appreciated.
Phillip
In conversation, the service adviser said it was a bent valve, but they didn't get that specific in the summary. The consensus of the shop foreman, technician, and service adviser was that over-revving just after start-up or a missed shift did it. I am deeply troubled because it never occurred to me that I could damage the engine at just under 4K rpm. I would have to have missed a shift in first gear right out of the driveway, and I never shift then. I just leave it in first to the corner light, or if I'm going the other way, I shift into second. The only missed shifts I've ever had were third/fifth mis-shifts.
I'm posting this here because I am wondering if perhaps this is related to the problem Billman posted about.
This was a huge blow and I'm still not sure what we're going to do. We love the car. She looks brand-new and had a solid service history. For them to replace the head will be $6,050. We could do that, but it will certainly bite. But I'd feel a lot better about doing that if I knew what had happened and how to avoid it like the plague in future.
Some of you are very knowledgeable about this sort of thing. I'm just a person who loves driving a good sports car. Any enlightenment you experts want to throw my way would be appreciated.
Phillip
08-29-2016, 07:36 PM
#255
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Foothills East of Sacramento
Posts: 5,607
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I suspect the so called "damage" occurrence was the moment when the CEL light illuminated. That is what was recorded. What the engine was doing (operating temp and low rpms) was just the coincidence. The damage, whatever it is, occurred before the light illumination. I have never heard of or can imagine valve damage/engine damage occurring at half its rated rpm with all other factors being normal. Don't forget these dealers rarely get to work on an S and they have to look it up in the books to see what they heck they are doing. They just don't know this car and engine even if the sign says Honda and your S says Honda.
It could be a torched valve from tight tolerances for 65K miles, it could be from a mechanical over rev from the previous owner. It might be pieces of a spark plug in the cylinder. ( I would like to see the "valve inspec numbers) I would balk at taking the dealer as the only word in this case. I would get a second opinion from a good shop. The price quote from this dealer is the worst case scenario. Hang on to your hat and lets see what some of the other comments might be.
It could be a torched valve from tight tolerances for 65K miles, it could be from a mechanical over rev from the previous owner. It might be pieces of a spark plug in the cylinder. ( I would like to see the "valve inspec numbers) I would balk at taking the dealer as the only word in this case. I would get a second opinion from a good shop. The price quote from this dealer is the worst case scenario. Hang on to your hat and lets see what some of the other comments might be.
08-30-2016, 02:58 AM
#256
Registered User
I suspect the so called "damage" occurrence was the moment when the CEL light illuminated. That is what was recorded. What the engine was doing (operating temp and low rpms) was just the coincidence. The damage, whatever it is, occurred before the light illumination. I have never heard of or can imagine valve damage/engine damage occurring at half its rated rpm with all other factors being normal. Don't forget these dealers rarely get to work on an S and they have to look it up in the books to see what they heck they are doing. They just don't know this car and engine even if the sign says Honda and your S says Honda.
It could be a torched valve from tight tolerances for 65K miles, it could be from a mechanical over rev from the previous owner. It might be pieces of a spark plug in the cylinder. ( I would like to see the "valve inspec numbers) I would balk at taking the dealer as the only word in this case. I would get a second opinion from a good shop. The price quote from this dealer is the worst case scenario. Hang on to your hat and lets see what some of the other comments might be.
It could be a torched valve from tight tolerances for 65K miles, it could be from a mechanical over rev from the previous owner. It might be pieces of a spark plug in the cylinder. ( I would like to see the "valve inspec numbers) I would balk at taking the dealer as the only word in this case. I would get a second opinion from a good shop. The price quote from this dealer is the worst case scenario. Hang on to your hat and lets see what some of the other comments might be.
08-30-2016, 02:59 AM
#257
Registered User
Yes, let's indeed. Thank you. This is what I expected, and pretty much where I had gotten to by the end of the day after a back-and-forth with one of my best friends who is very knowledgeable himself, and I think at this point the best thing to do is going to be to find that shop.
09-28-2016, 09:27 AM
#258
Registered User
Took a month to get it all sorted, but I now have the car back and she seems to be running great. Here's the run-down. Jason Wadsworth at CNC Speedshop near Raleigh did the work. Turns out the valves were not damaged; they cleaned up well. The exhaust valve guides, though, were quite worn and none of the cylinders were holding full vacuum on the exhaust ports. This problem, too, he attributed to exhaust valve lash being too tight, something he said he has seen on several DBW cars. He replaced the valve guides with Supertech manganese bronze guides, upgraded the valve springs but not excessively; he believes in increasing tension only about 20% to avoid other issues, but he said it will provide some add'l insurance against "The Money Shift." He did the TCT upgrade while he was at it. Put 40-50 miles on the car and said everything seemed good.
Certainly seems worthwhile to me at this point for anyone with a lower-mileage DBW car to get the valves checked right away; might stave off a pretty expensive repair when the car gets to 67K like mine.
Certainly seems worthwhile to me at this point for anyone with a lower-mileage DBW car to get the valves checked right away; might stave off a pretty expensive repair when the car gets to 67K like mine.
10-11-2016, 07:29 PM
#259
1. Thank you Billman for informing us of this issue. I have a 135k mile 08(bought it at 130k) that tends to misfire at idle about once a week that I notice. I've been intending to change plugs, check valve clearence, change TCT as a proactive item as it isn't acting up at all, but there is a small amount of oil around the outside of it. After reading this ENTIRE thing, I will be checking the clearances tomorrow after work. I'm really hoping this misfire isn't a burnt valve, but after reading what I've read in here I feel like I already know the answer. We'll see what I find when I get in there. I'm temped to snake my borescope down in there to have a little look-see while I'm at it, but I'm afraid of what I'll find.
2. phillipfrankreid, I laughed, quite literally out loud, at your "money shift" comment. I hadn't heard that term before now, but it makes perfect sense.
Anyhow. I'll update with what I find. Wish me luck!
2. phillipfrankreid, I laughed, quite literally out loud, at your "money shift" comment. I hadn't heard that term before now, but it makes perfect sense.
Anyhow. I'll update with what I find. Wish me luck!
10-13-2016, 04:23 AM
#260
Registered User
1. Thank you Billman for informing us of this issue. I have a 135k mile 08(bought it at 130k) that tends to misfire at idle about once a week that I notice. I've been intending to change plugs, check valve clearence, change TCT as a proactive item as it isn't acting up at all, but there is a small amount of oil around the outside of it. After reading this ENTIRE thing, I will be checking the clearances tomorrow after work. I'm really hoping this misfire isn't a burnt valve, but after reading what I've read in here I feel like I already know the answer. We'll see what I find when I get in there. I'm temped to snake my borescope down in there to have a little look-see while I'm at it, but I'm afraid of what I'll find.
2. phillipfrankreid, I laughed, quite literally out loud, at your "money shift" comment. I hadn't heard that term before now, but it makes perfect sense.
Anyhow. I'll update with what I find. Wish me luck!
2. phillipfrankreid, I laughed, quite literally out loud, at your "money shift" comment. I hadn't heard that term before now, but it makes perfect sense.
Anyhow. I'll update with what I find. Wish me luck!