Hello. If you are a s2000 master mechanic in Oregon, I would like to speak with you about a job. I have used the search function prior to posting this. I am only posting this as a final cry for help.

Let me tell you a story about brake fluid. Summary below.
I have owned my 2004 S2k (64,000-70,000 miles) for one year now. Six months ago I noticed the brake fluid was very dirty. I read Billman's DIY Gravity bleed procedure. The problem was I did this during winter. I did not do some hard slows to heat the brake fluid up. I opened the right front bleeder and a few drops slowly came out. I left for an hour. When I came back the fluid had stopped dripping. The reservoir was still full. I am assumed leaving the bleeder open for an hour with no fluid coming out introduced air into the entire system. The brake pedal was gone.

The next day I borrowed my roommate for a two man brake bleed. The pedal was better, but still terrible.

A week later I heated the brake fluid first. Then put a hose into a full fluid bottle and pumped the brakes by myself. I watched to make sure none of the air went back into the bleeder. This of course made it worse from leakage around the bleeder threads etc. Terrible pedal.

Next was another two man method. We were extremely careful and used two quarts of fluid. Exact same pedal feel.

I finally took the car to a shop to have a professional do it with a vacuum bleeder or something. They told me the best pedal feel is from two man bleeding. So they did the exact thing I did a week before. The tech commented on his friend owning an s2k and the pedal on my car is exactly how it is supposed to feel. I doubt the pedal should touch the ground when pressed hard. They got no air out. Wasted $60.

I was very depressed at this point. If a professional shop can't get a good pedal, who can? Four months pass and the pedal gets a tiny bit more firm just from normal driving and some autocross. The pedal is safe at this point. Not close to "welded on" as Billman states. But it does not touch the ground when pressed hard. A few weeks ago I bought new tires. Dunlop Z2. I was testing them on backroads the same day as the install. Two 60-10mph slows and I had massive brake fade. I assumed this was something to do with the mold release still on the tires. I had run the autocross with no fade at all. I was very sad again. I thought I may have boiled the fluid. The pedal touched the ground when pressed hard.

Today I bought a Mityvac. When I removed the reservoir cap it was 1/2inch low. Strange. Did I have a leak somewhere? Did boiling the fluid change the fluid level? Willing to try anything I bought a bench bleed kit. I followed http://robrobinette.com/bleeding_the...r_cylinder.htm . I only did the front left in this manner. Should all 4 abs lines be done in this fashion? I figure it would not hurt my impossible to bleed system.

Now it was time to try my shiny new vacuum bleeder. I went ahead and sucked out old fluid and poured in new. I also used/wasted Ate super blue. I followed the bleed order recommended by Billman. During the procedure I could hardly get any fluid out. I pumped up to 15 in/hg and opened the bleeder. 99% air came out. I checked all seals and they seemed fine. Eventually I left the bleeder open and pumped furiously to keep the vacuum above(below?) 10in/hg. It probably took 10-15 minutes per wheel to get from clear fluid to the blue ATE. After all of my trouble and expense of the vacuum bleeder I had the exact same pedal. Push hard and it will touch the ground. I am completely stumped yet again.

I am going to research more on vacuum bleeding and grease the bleeder threads. I will try the vacuum bleeder once more tonight and be very thorough.

The only part of this that excites me is the slightly lower brake fluid. I hope I have a leak somewhere. It should not be this difficult to bleed a brake system.

Summary

1. Gravity bleed in winter. Air in entire system.
2. Two man method. Slightly improved pedal
3. One man pump? Terrible idea
4. Two man method. Similar feel to 2.
5. Local shop two man method. $60 later exact same feel as 4.
5a.New tires and boiled brake fluid. How?
6. Mityvac vacuum bleeder. Pedal will touch ground when pressed hard enough. Same feel as 5a.

P.S. Thank you for the TCT Billman. If I lived closer I would request your help with this simple procedure.

 

Pedal touching the floor is no good. It should come no where near the floor.

I got your help right here, real simple.

Disconnect your battery to disable brake light.

Using a cut to length piece of wood, pump up the pedal as firm as possible. While holding firm pressure, block the pedal down with a piece of wood against the seat track.

Basically, you want to have a piece of wood holding firm pressure all by itself.

Do it by 2pm, leave it sit until the next morning.

Come back and post how your brake pedal feels.

I learned this from an 83 year old man, about 25 years ago. If done right, it will not fail you.

 

I will test that out Saturday I suppose. I start work at 2pm Thursday and Friday. I forgot to mention I tried pegging the pedal after the first two man bleed. I don't think it did anything then.

I just got done vacuum bleeding for the second time. I applied teflon tape to the bleeder threads. The screws themselves have white and rust colored corrosion on the tips. I got a much better seal this time. The pedal has slightly more bite but the engagement point is still half way down and the pedal will touch the floor with firm pressure.

 

Sounds like you need a master cylinder.

Bleeding by conventional two man methods move the piston into unused area, where dirt accumulates.

You may have scuffed the piston in the master during the full-pump procedure.

 

Scuffing the piston causes corrosion on the bleeders? How does a faulty master cylinder give a spongy pedal? I have a rock solid pedal when the car is off and pumped.

I am going to buy 4 quarts of fluid. Set aside all of Saturday and try to very thoroughly vacuum bleed it for the third time. I wish it was easier to tell when the air is gone. The stream comes out quickly but is 1/8 the inner diameter of the hose. Making it impossible to tell when a corner is air free. I am not getting that full 3/8" stream of fluid like the two man method.

Do you still want me to try pegging the pedal overnight? How do I test if there is a part failure?

 

I'm curious about this procedure. Do you know what this does or how it works? Do you need to re-bleed the calipers after doing this? If there is air in the system, will keeping the system pressurized overnight work the air bubbles up the lines and into the MC reservoir? I might try this myself I was just curious if you knew what the mechanism is here for improving the pedal.

 

What I have always done is to remove the bleeders and wrap the threads with thread tape. Then starting from the furthest corner from the reservoir loosen the bleeder and put a small piece of clear tubing on it. Put the tubing into a 1/2 filled bottle of old brake fluid and pump. If you keep the tubing down in the brake fluid as you pump it will not allow air to enter the system backwards. Do that on each corner until the pedal feels solid. You need to keep the reservoir topped off. If it runs low air will enter the system and you will need to start again.

 

When you press on the pedal under power, the master piston is simply bypassing the fluid. this is of course based on all the air being out.

You can also try tilting the car. Jack up one side 18 inches or so.

When air is trapped it is at a high point. Tipping the car changes the high point and helps the air pocket escape.

To me is sounds like you got the air out, but damaged the master in the process.

 

Same, but I've never needed to tape the bleeders

 

You don't have to and sometimes I don't. I have used a dab of bearing grease as well. Just helps keep the air out.