Broken Mugen Header!
Moderator
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 12,904
Likes: 93
From: Big Box suburb, IL
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dezoris
I just saw two dynos done where the cars made less power than a stock S2000s.
With coveted Mugen parts
I don't talk out my ass, maybe you should do some studying on tuning an N/A S2000. Without engine management, bolts ons it do little to nothing other than hurt overall performance.[/b]
I sort of agree on this but not totally. My first engine mods on the car where AEM-style intake, exhaust and throttle body. I, agree for the fact, that I think I lost quite a bit of low-end, but for what I gained in the upper-mid range to the high end was awesome. So yes, there was some engine performance loss, but the motor gained more elsewhere. Take a little, give a little.
When I switched over to Mugen engine parts, the car felt like it gained its stock power back and enhanced all the "dips" the stock '00-'01's were characterized by. Adding the ECU was just icing on the cake (of which wasn't being used at the FWT due to my own insecurities of not having the immobilizer as added security in a city that I wasn't familiar with).
As for making less power on the dyno (since one of the cars you refer to is mine), ehhh. We've heard all the excuses and reasons. I won't make any here. I didn't have trouble keeping up with others on the road, and on the way in from Petowski, I didn't have trouble pulling away from many either. If you are making comparisons to Johnny_S2K's car. He's got an anomoly of S2000's. Of all the 100's of S2000 I've been up close and personal with in over the 4 years, there have been about 4 or 5 that have shown to be stronger than the norm. In each of them, the engines seemed much more loose....mine is one of them. Now Johnny's....his engine sounds so "rattly"! But dog-damn his car pulls like no other I've seen (not including FI S2000's).
That's the beauty of Mugen parts. Simplicity, truely plug and play. No tuning necessary. Sure you won't get an out of the box tune that gives the owner peak performance of what he's looking for, but it sure is close. The author of this passage resembles my sentiments almost exactly:
..I didn't add mechanical complexity to the car. I didn't add more failure points. In fact I lessened those. I made the car work better under duress. It's more efficient aerodynamically, it produces more power, it handles better, and it stops better than stock. The parts I've added are also arguably of higher quality than OEM (arguable since there is always someone who will claim OEM is far better than anything aftermarket and I'm not about to fall into that pit of dispair).
Instead of only being able to tap 80% of the potential with ease, I can tap 95% of that potential at the same level of driver involvement and stress to the car...
I equate maximizing the original intent of the designers' goals as being that reason- and as you may or may not know, Mugen is very closely aligned with HMC. If the engineers wanted the car to have forced induction, they would have designed it that way. I keep hearing about how the S2000 is supposed to be Honda's interpretation of purest driving vehicle (albeit with a few caveats like the bump steer issue documented extensively), and I've never heard anyone who has actually driven my [Mugenized] car say [that it] detracts, rather, that it distills that driving experience and makes it even better.
This makes it sound like King is doing something wrong or unethical here. All the facts aren't present here to make that determination. Here are some possibilities: King designed the upper control arms. They contracted Skunk2 to manufacture them for a period of time. Skunk2, either began manufacturing and re-badging them within those contract terms or as the contract terms where out-dated. For however long King was selling them to the market, they maintained pricing because there was still demand at that price, or they weren't aware of competition. Another possibility could be that King is a contracted retailer for Skunk2 with powers to re-badge certain Skunk2 products. The philosophy of adding value to parts by be-badging them as King parts adds value to both King and Skunk. King sells the control arm because of the badging and the branding. Skunk2 sells more because their products are similar to what King sell, for less...."hey, if it's good enough for King to sell and use these, it's good enough for the consumer to purchase them from Skunk2."
As for selling the same product at different prices to different consumer/customer markets, that's nothing new. Utility companies, drink bottling companies, fuel refineries, auto manufacturers, and even college text-book publishers do it all the time. There are many more industries that I left out....there is always something around you that is strategically priced for the market is was sold to...take a look at the clothes on your back. Find the same brand and style of clothing in the inner-city and you'll be surprised at what you would have paid. Ok, enough economics and marketing.
Back to the Mugen issue. Don't forget that Mugen is more than just engine components. They also do suspension, seats (which happen to be reupholstered and rebadged Recaros), aero pieces, etc. All this "stuff" works in harmony with all the other mods. What you don't gain in peak numbers as you would with force induction, you gain in driveability. What you don't save in price, you gain in quality of finish and fit.
Dezoris, if you'd like, I can take you for a ride in my car and/or give you the keys for 10-20 minutes. I'm sure you'll have less harsh of a view on what's accentuated using Mugen parts.
I just saw two dynos done where the cars made less power than a stock S2000s.
With coveted Mugen parts
I don't talk out my ass, maybe you should do some studying on tuning an N/A S2000. Without engine management, bolts ons it do little to nothing other than hurt overall performance.[/b]
I sort of agree on this but not totally. My first engine mods on the car where AEM-style intake, exhaust and throttle body. I, agree for the fact, that I think I lost quite a bit of low-end, but for what I gained in the upper-mid range to the high end was awesome. So yes, there was some engine performance loss, but the motor gained more elsewhere. Take a little, give a little.
When I switched over to Mugen engine parts, the car felt like it gained its stock power back and enhanced all the "dips" the stock '00-'01's were characterized by. Adding the ECU was just icing on the cake (of which wasn't being used at the FWT due to my own insecurities of not having the immobilizer as added security in a city that I wasn't familiar with).
As for making less power on the dyno (since one of the cars you refer to is mine), ehhh. We've heard all the excuses and reasons. I won't make any here. I didn't have trouble keeping up with others on the road, and on the way in from Petowski, I didn't have trouble pulling away from many either. If you are making comparisons to Johnny_S2K's car. He's got an anomoly of S2000's. Of all the 100's of S2000 I've been up close and personal with in over the 4 years, there have been about 4 or 5 that have shown to be stronger than the norm. In each of them, the engines seemed much more loose....mine is one of them. Now Johnny's....his engine sounds so "rattly"! But dog-damn his car pulls like no other I've seen (not including FI S2000's).
Well wow would I say this and not post some reasoning. I guess that would be typical right as it is easy to spew shit and not back it up the web forums. And honestly I am just bringing up a point, its open for debate please prove me wrong.
Here are results from our dyno day on the Mustang dyno.
The results seemed odd, but after talking with the shop owner as well as some dynapack tuners in CA, and others on my forum, the concensus was, whether you spend almost $4,000$ on Mugen parts or 1500$ the I/H/E combos do not do much on any N/A Honda car without tuning.
Here are results from our dyno day on the Mustang dyno.
The results seemed odd, but after talking with the shop owner as well as some dynapack tuners in CA, and others on my forum, the concensus was, whether you spend almost $4,000$ on Mugen parts or 1500$ the I/H/E combos do not do much on any N/A Honda car without tuning.
..I didn't add mechanical complexity to the car. I didn't add more failure points. In fact I lessened those. I made the car work better under duress. It's more efficient aerodynamically, it produces more power, it handles better, and it stops better than stock. The parts I've added are also arguably of higher quality than OEM (arguable since there is always someone who will claim OEM is far better than anything aftermarket and I'm not about to fall into that pit of dispair).
Instead of only being able to tap 80% of the potential with ease, I can tap 95% of that potential at the same level of driver involvement and stress to the car...
I equate maximizing the original intent of the designers' goals as being that reason- and as you may or may not know, Mugen is very closely aligned with HMC. If the engineers wanted the car to have forced induction, they would have designed it that way. I keep hearing about how the S2000 is supposed to be Honda's interpretation of purest driving vehicle (albeit with a few caveats like the bump steer issue documented extensively), and I've never heard anyone who has actually driven my [Mugenized] car say [that it] detracts, rather, that it distills that driving experience and makes it even better.
The s2000 proves this point further.
I think they are the best parts you can buy for quality, but are a total and complete rip off for the performance you get, and anyone who argues that is just justifying the name plate.
Here is another example:
King was/ is previously selling upper control arms for the Civic with a marked up price, they were in fact made for king by Skunk2. The same product you could buy from Skunk2 was more money at King rebadged. I brought this issue up with them, via phone and email asking why they charged more, and the response was that they were custom made for them. After comparing the pieces I found no difference in matterials or design, just price. The price has since come down. In some ways you pay for the name, thats my real point. And as far as performance, well prove to me it is worth it.
I think they are the best parts you can buy for quality, but are a total and complete rip off for the performance you get, and anyone who argues that is just justifying the name plate.
Here is another example:
King was/ is previously selling upper control arms for the Civic with a marked up price, they were in fact made for king by Skunk2. The same product you could buy from Skunk2 was more money at King rebadged. I brought this issue up with them, via phone and email asking why they charged more, and the response was that they were custom made for them. After comparing the pieces I found no difference in matterials or design, just price. The price has since come down. In some ways you pay for the name, thats my real point. And as far as performance, well prove to me it is worth it.
As for selling the same product at different prices to different consumer/customer markets, that's nothing new. Utility companies, drink bottling companies, fuel refineries, auto manufacturers, and even college text-book publishers do it all the time. There are many more industries that I left out....there is always something around you that is strategically priced for the market is was sold to...take a look at the clothes on your back. Find the same brand and style of clothing in the inner-city and you'll be surprised at what you would have paid. Ok, enough economics and marketing.
Back to the Mugen issue. Don't forget that Mugen is more than just engine components. They also do suspension, seats (which happen to be reupholstered and rebadged Recaros), aero pieces, etc. All this "stuff" works in harmony with all the other mods. What you don't gain in peak numbers as you would with force induction, you gain in driveability. What you don't save in price, you gain in quality of finish and fit.
Dezoris, if you'd like, I can take you for a ride in my car and/or give you the keys for 10-20 minutes. I'm sure you'll have less harsh of a view on what's accentuated using Mugen parts.
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,627
Likes: 27
From: Woodstock
First I would like to mention I am not attacking, cutting down or putting down Mugen, KMS, or anyone with these parts. This is a tech forum discussing tuning and parts, etc.
I am trying to discuss somethings and I appreciate the feedback.
As far as this
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Luder94
I am trying to discuss somethings and I appreciate the feedback.
As far as this
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Luder94
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 93,305
Likes: 820
From: Nowhere
Damn Jason. That's a clean break. You sure you're not abusing your car somehow? 
Having driven and paced both Luder's and Kaolinte's car against my stock '01, I can assure you this statement is coming from your ass. From 6500-redline, my car is every bit as fast as Kaolinte's, and loses just a small bit to Luder's. Below 6500, they both eat me alive - and it's not even a close match. The Mugen parts mostly strive to improve low-end and midrange torque, and they do exactly that, with no penalty up top. I'm not sure why that's so hard to believe.
Originally posted by Dezoris
What good is peak power when you lose too much down low?
What good is peak power when you lose too much down low?
Registered User
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,987
Likes: 0
From: Hawaii
If you look at the numbers, it makes no sense, however my knowledge with the new 2.2L S2000's is next to zero. IMHO, the graphical lines may be reversed as the Mugen header has shown in the past in some cars to rob peak HP... and in the illustration it demonstrates that to some degree, along with a much more pronounced midrange. I think the illustration's legend regarding which one is stock versus the Mugen equipped car is a mistake, however I have no means to prove otherwise... but a publication error is what I'd put my money on.
The Mugen ECU runs the AF a bit lean, but runs a significant amount of ignition over the OEM ECU which explains the graph's improved lower power band (btw, advancing the ignition timing often times improves low end power on just about any car that can benefit from it without denonation and overheating). The Mugen ECU also has proven to shift the power peak up above the normal 8300 rpms (which again is easily noticed in the chart which I seriously believe has the color assignments wrong).
Here's an old thread on Ultimate Lurker's review on a Mugen ECU equipped car and the resulting test information. BTW, if you don't know who UL is... he's probably one of the most experienced and knowledgeable of any S2000 owner amongst us. Being a reputable tuner in his shop, he's posted numerous articles on VTEC.net that provides a lot of useful information to many.
Mugen ECU Thread
AF Ratio Thread - What should you target using a VAFC?
More comments from Ultimate Lurker regarding the different headers
Here's an old image of a Mugen header + exhaust dyno test by KMS.
Bottom line: No amount of talk, dyno charts or reviews from other people who actually have the products on their cars will ever replace your own real-life experience. Don't believe me, don't believe anyone... but when you get a chance to drive one hard, jump on it... then you'd understand.
The Mugen ECU runs the AF a bit lean, but runs a significant amount of ignition over the OEM ECU which explains the graph's improved lower power band (btw, advancing the ignition timing often times improves low end power on just about any car that can benefit from it without denonation and overheating). The Mugen ECU also has proven to shift the power peak up above the normal 8300 rpms (which again is easily noticed in the chart which I seriously believe has the color assignments wrong).
Here's an old thread on Ultimate Lurker's review on a Mugen ECU equipped car and the resulting test information. BTW, if you don't know who UL is... he's probably one of the most experienced and knowledgeable of any S2000 owner amongst us. Being a reputable tuner in his shop, he's posted numerous articles on VTEC.net that provides a lot of useful information to many.
Mugen ECU Thread
AF Ratio Thread - What should you target using a VAFC?
More comments from Ultimate Lurker regarding the different headers
Here's an old image of a Mugen header + exhaust dyno test by KMS.
Bottom line: No amount of talk, dyno charts or reviews from other people who actually have the products on their cars will ever replace your own real-life experience. Don't believe me, don't believe anyone... but when you get a chance to drive one hard, jump on it... then you'd understand.
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,627
Likes: 27
From: Woodstock
Originally posted by Xplosiv
dude its pathetic u tried that hard to hate on Mugen parts...just admit it u hate it cuz u cannot afford it sucker
dude its pathetic u tried that hard to hate on Mugen parts...just admit it u hate it cuz u cannot afford it sucker
Originally posted by Hyper-X If you look at the numbers, it makes no sense, however my knowledge with the new 2.2L S2000's is next to zero. IMHO, the graphical lines may be reversed as the Mugen header has shown in the past in some cars to rob peak HP... and in the illustration it demonstrates that to some degree, along with a much more pronounced midrange. I think the illustration's legend regarding which one is stock versus the Mugen equipped car is a mistake, however I have no means to prove otherwise... but a publication error is what I'd put my money on.
The Mugen ECU runs the AF a bit lean, but runs a significant amount of ignition over the OEM ECU which explains the graph's improved lower power band (btw, advancing the ignition timing often times improves low end power on just about any car that can benefit from it without denonation and overheating). The Mugen ECU also has proven to shift the power peak up above the normal 8300 rpms (which again is easily noticed in the chart which I seriously believe has the color assignments wrong).
Here's an old thread on Ultimate Lurker's review on a Mugen ECU equipped car and the resulting test information. BTW, if you don't know who UL is... he's probably one of the most experienced and knowledgeable of any S2000 owner amongst us. Being a reputable tuner in his shop, he's posted numerous articles on VTEC.net that provides a lot of useful information to many.
The Mugen ECU runs the AF a bit lean, but runs a significant amount of ignition over the OEM ECU which explains the graph's improved lower power band (btw, advancing the ignition timing often times improves low end power on just about any car that can benefit from it without denonation and overheating). The Mugen ECU also has proven to shift the power peak up above the normal 8300 rpms (which again is easily noticed in the chart which I seriously believe has the color assignments wrong).
Here's an old thread on Ultimate Lurker's review on a Mugen ECU equipped car and the resulting test information. BTW, if you don't know who UL is... he's probably one of the most experienced and knowledgeable of any S2000 owner amongst us. Being a reputable tuner in his shop, he's posted numerous articles on VTEC.net that provides a lot of useful information to many.
Bottom line: No amount of talk, dyno charts or reviews from other people who actually have the products on their cars will ever replace your own real-life experience. Don't believe me, don't believe anyone... but when you get a chance to drive one hard, jump on it... then you'd understand.
I would like to see urmils car do a rolling start against a stock s2000, no drag launches, a 1st gear start at 10MPH. I would be absolutely shocked if he pulled more than a car length up to 80 MPH-100MPH
Moderator
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 12,904
Likes: 93
From: Big Box suburb, IL
Dezoris,
Keep another thing in mind when you compare the dynograph you posted with the one posted by Hyper-X:
The Mugen parts used on the car in your graph are installed on a 2004 car. Mugen did some very tight testing and design around the test results of the air flow characteristics of the intake, header, and exhaust based off of the F20C. That being said, those parts are for the 2.0L motor....compared to the 2.2, compression is different, stroke is different, air flow is different, etc.
Sure the parts may fit the 2.2L, but they don't enhance anything in terms of increasing performance numbers. You may as well post a graph of either S2000 motors with an old school Injen air intake (you know the one that has the filter in the engine bay), made for a Civic. For me, and almost any other, that fact does not make or hammer any nails into any coffin.
You keep referring back to using some sub $1000 non-Mugen parts to make the same power. In looking at peak change of numbers, you're leaving out factors like, discretion of proportion of income, desirability of reputatio, etc. from the $3000 setup that Mugen provides. Sure I could have spend a $115 on an AEM-style intake, $200 on DC Sports headers, and $330 on an exhaust that would net me similar numbers or even higher peak numbers as the $3000 Mugen setup. My main goal wasn't just peak performance (as I define it), it was also the quality I was expecting, the service I was expecting, the total gain by using parts that were designed to be used together (not what the piece-mealing approach does), and I was looking for a bit of exclusivity.
I've done the piece-meal mods on my previous Prelude, and re-modded to get more, and then re-modded to fix reliability issues. When I started with the S2000, I decided I was going to go the 'right' way from the beginning. The 'right' way for me was to use Mugen parts. It cost more upfront, but I'm sure it's saved me in the long run.
If you really want to do a comparison of what Mugen parts can do, doing a comparison on my car and your car is not the way to go, seeing that we have different mileages on the car, mine's probably been beat on a bit more...I probably have more wear on not just the engine, but also on the drive train, diff, etc. I'm game never the less.
The true way for you to feel whatever gains are to be had, is you drive your car. Then get all the Mugen stuff swapped onto your car. Then go for another drive. Then you come back and buy all the Mugen stuff that you swapped on.
Keep another thing in mind when you compare the dynograph you posted with the one posted by Hyper-X:
The Mugen parts used on the car in your graph are installed on a 2004 car. Mugen did some very tight testing and design around the test results of the air flow characteristics of the intake, header, and exhaust based off of the F20C. That being said, those parts are for the 2.0L motor....compared to the 2.2, compression is different, stroke is different, air flow is different, etc.
Sure the parts may fit the 2.2L, but they don't enhance anything in terms of increasing performance numbers. You may as well post a graph of either S2000 motors with an old school Injen air intake (you know the one that has the filter in the engine bay), made for a Civic. For me, and almost any other, that fact does not make or hammer any nails into any coffin.
You keep referring back to using some sub $1000 non-Mugen parts to make the same power. In looking at peak change of numbers, you're leaving out factors like, discretion of proportion of income, desirability of reputatio, etc. from the $3000 setup that Mugen provides. Sure I could have spend a $115 on an AEM-style intake, $200 on DC Sports headers, and $330 on an exhaust that would net me similar numbers or even higher peak numbers as the $3000 Mugen setup. My main goal wasn't just peak performance (as I define it), it was also the quality I was expecting, the service I was expecting, the total gain by using parts that were designed to be used together (not what the piece-mealing approach does), and I was looking for a bit of exclusivity.
I've done the piece-meal mods on my previous Prelude, and re-modded to get more, and then re-modded to fix reliability issues. When I started with the S2000, I decided I was going to go the 'right' way from the beginning. The 'right' way for me was to use Mugen parts. It cost more upfront, but I'm sure it's saved me in the long run.
If you really want to do a comparison of what Mugen parts can do, doing a comparison on my car and your car is not the way to go, seeing that we have different mileages on the car, mine's probably been beat on a bit more...I probably have more wear on not just the engine, but also on the drive train, diff, etc. I'm game never the less.
The true way for you to feel whatever gains are to be had, is you drive your car. Then get all the Mugen stuff swapped onto your car. Then go for another drive. Then you come back and buy all the Mugen stuff that you swapped on
.
Registered User
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,987
Likes: 0
From: Hawaii
Hey Dezoris.
Keep in mind that in auto-x, improved acceleration power is very important. My friend's Mugen equipped car easily out-accelerates my car from section to section (meaning the short straights between slalom sections). A car with a more linear power delivery will do that as it will have the torque advantage on being on power much earlier (because the time you can use full power is minimal, so you'll need to depend on the power curve much below peak). Having an effective midrange will help everything but the peak HP reading on a dyno... what you don't gain in absolute peak HP, you gain in a much better car to drive day to day (since the power is more useful below peak), autocross (for accelerating from corner to corner in the shortest time possible), and a more comfortable car to drive since you're augmenting where the car is weak... torque at the VTEC transition which the Mugen parts make a huge improvement in smoothing out the power curve.
Peak HP can be more effectively utilized on an open track I think... where you can stay on the gas much longer and open the car up by fully utilizing most of the gears.
Keep in mind that in auto-x, improved acceleration power is very important. My friend's Mugen equipped car easily out-accelerates my car from section to section (meaning the short straights between slalom sections). A car with a more linear power delivery will do that as it will have the torque advantage on being on power much earlier (because the time you can use full power is minimal, so you'll need to depend on the power curve much below peak). Having an effective midrange will help everything but the peak HP reading on a dyno... what you don't gain in absolute peak HP, you gain in a much better car to drive day to day (since the power is more useful below peak), autocross (for accelerating from corner to corner in the shortest time possible), and a more comfortable car to drive since you're augmenting where the car is weak... torque at the VTEC transition which the Mugen parts make a huge improvement in smoothing out the power curve.
Peak HP can be more effectively utilized on an open track I think... where you can stay on the gas much longer and open the car up by fully utilizing most of the gears.