Diff oil weight recommendation? 2018
10-03-2018, 05:24 AM
#181
Not straight away.
But it will after a while.
Because the high offset final drive is chewing up your diff oil, that's the nature of that final drive (remember the original GL-6 recommendation?)
I went to a Honda dealership at some point and aksed them to check the electric power steering because I experienced this behavior.
I was still new to the car, within 2 years of ownership.
Note I had recently been in for a service at another dealership I went to for years and I bought cars - but not the S2000 - from.
They also changed diff oil.
All - and I really mean ALL - the Honda dealer did was change the whatever-was-in-the-diff oil for Honda Marine SAE 90 GL-5.
After the first roundabout - we, as you know, have a lot of those in the Netherlands - I was smiling again.
The nose kept pointed where I pointed it.
Over the years I based my diff oil changes on how the car - or better, the Torsen LSD - behaved.
The Honda Marine SAE 90 GL-5 did eventually also do this (shear down, chewed up by the ring & pinion) and I searched a lot to get the at that point famous LE-607 and actually found it and used it.
I still have an unopened bottle of it.
As I then installed the 4.57's and Richmond Gear recommened 75W-140 I never went thinner.
As the other LE gear oils are very hard to come by - ask Chuck - I started using Amsoil.
Do what you want with this info, I know what I felt in the car and I know it was fixed with fresh - and better - diff oil alone.
The S2000 will talk to you when you drive it and it will let you know what you do right and wrong.
Problem is, the parts that are wrong (shitty tires, bad alignment and the idiot behind the wheel too) shout out loud and block the LSD whispering "I'm locking a bit too much but that's because the R&P have destroyed the oil, please change it"
Sorry for the long story.
But it will after a while.
Because the high offset final drive is chewing up your diff oil, that's the nature of that final drive (remember the original GL-6 recommendation?)
I went to a Honda dealership at some point and aksed them to check the electric power steering because I experienced this behavior.
I was still new to the car, within 2 years of ownership.
Note I had recently been in for a service at another dealership I went to for years and I bought cars - but not the S2000 - from.
They also changed diff oil.
All - and I really mean ALL - the Honda dealer did was change the whatever-was-in-the-diff oil for Honda Marine SAE 90 GL-5.
After the first roundabout - we, as you know, have a lot of those in the Netherlands - I was smiling again.
The nose kept pointed where I pointed it.
Over the years I based my diff oil changes on how the car - or better, the Torsen LSD - behaved.
The Honda Marine SAE 90 GL-5 did eventually also do this (shear down, chewed up by the ring & pinion) and I searched a lot to get the at that point famous LE-607 and actually found it and used it.
I still have an unopened bottle of it.
As I then installed the 4.57's and Richmond Gear recommened 75W-140 I never went thinner.
As the other LE gear oils are very hard to come by - ask Chuck - I started using Amsoil.
Do what you want with this info, I know what I felt in the car and I know it was fixed with fresh - and better - diff oil alone.
The S2000 will talk to you when you drive it and it will let you know what you do right and wrong.
Problem is, the parts that are wrong (shitty tires, bad alignment and the idiot behind the wheel too) shout out loud and block the LSD whispering "I'm locking a bit too much but that's because the R&P have destroyed the oil, please change it"
Sorry for the long story.
And did you have the same understeer issue at higher speed or just slow speed tight corners like the roundabout you mentioned? And do you mean while going round it, or while steering to exit?
lastly, how much power increase did you feel with the 4.57 fd?
10-03-2018, 07:22 AM
#182
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This is a good read:
https://torsen.com/lubricant-part-2/
There is a lot to read there.
Their website has changed a lot last time I visited it.
They don't even mention the S2000 anymore...
I had a look at my service records and this story of the diff oil happened in 2005/2006.
Wasn't there a photo of a bottle of Honda Marine SAE 90 GL-5 in this thread?
As far as I remember there were no specs to find, not on the bottle, nowhere.
As I mentioned 'diff water' will work but only for a while, going by my own experience.
That said, if you think it works for you but you find parts on your drain plug...
The OCI of the 'bad' diff oil was 9213km. YMMV.
The most recent OCI on Amsoil SG 75W-140 was 32000km, it was still acting good.
The fresh fill didn't really make a huge difference (if any at all).
Also, I think I described the understeer-by-oil in detail, I noticed it during corner exit.
4,57's don't give you power, they lower the overall gear ratio between crank and wheels.
So you don't accelerate in 2nd gear but 1,8th gear. This is slightly quicker but also shorter, IOW you have to shift more.
And now we wait for the post to claim 4,10's are quicker if you start at speed x and go to speed y which is a single gear pull for a 4,10 and they win.
Is this allowed, btw, talking about the final drive ratio in a diff oil thread?
https://torsen.com/lubricant-part-2/
There is a lot to read there.
Their website has changed a lot last time I visited it.
They don't even mention the S2000 anymore...
I had a look at my service records and this story of the diff oil happened in 2005/2006.
Wasn't there a photo of a bottle of Honda Marine SAE 90 GL-5 in this thread?
As far as I remember there were no specs to find, not on the bottle, nowhere.
As I mentioned 'diff water' will work but only for a while, going by my own experience.
That said, if you think it works for you but you find parts on your drain plug...
The OCI of the 'bad' diff oil was 9213km. YMMV.
The most recent OCI on Amsoil SG 75W-140 was 32000km, it was still acting good.
The fresh fill didn't really make a huge difference (if any at all).
Also, I think I described the understeer-by-oil in detail, I noticed it during corner exit.
4,57's don't give you power, they lower the overall gear ratio between crank and wheels.
So you don't accelerate in 2nd gear but 1,8th gear. This is slightly quicker but also shorter, IOW you have to shift more.
And now we wait for the post to claim 4,10's are quicker if you start at speed x and go to speed y which is a single gear pull for a 4,10 and they win.
Is this allowed, btw, talking about the final drive ratio in a diff oil thread?
10-03-2018, 01:23 PM
#183
I don't think anyone literally believes numerically increasing final drive gearing creates more actual power. But it does produce a similar effect. Car accelerates faster.
I think thats all he meant by if you can feel tbe difference in power (power in this case just meaning acceleration effect).
I think thats all he meant by if you can feel tbe difference in power (power in this case just meaning acceleration effect).
10-03-2018, 03:39 PM
#184
I don't think anyone literally believes numerically increasing final drive gearing creates more actual power. But it does produce a similar effect. Car accelerates faster.
I think thats all he meant by if you can feel tbe difference in power (power in this case just meaning acceleration effect).
I think thats all he meant by if you can feel tbe difference in power (power in this case just meaning acceleration effect).
Engine power stays equal of course, but the power at the wheels actually does increase. As a tech explained me who does installs, the torque increases to be exact. For that reason the acceleration at good grip levels will be quicker. In every gear. The only reason people discuss if its quicker, is because they either dont understand mathematics, or they consider a certain distance like quartermile or a certain speed from 0-100km/h and if the shorter ratio causes an extra shift then you might indeed lose time. But thats is the only reason. In all other cenarios a shorter final drive IS quicker no discussion.
To make it more clear, imagine the opposite, that the car would have no gears at all but one to go from 0-100. You might understand it would take ages to get going. Or to simplify, to start a race in 2nd gear equals 1st gear + a longer final drive (although that limits only the startup because 3rd, 4th and so on will stay the same).
but changing the final drive changes the torque ratio in every gear.
Going from 4.1 (stock) to 4.57 is a factor of 11.5%. Meaning you get 11.5% more torque at the wheels in every gear.
Another simple example if you have driven a bicycle with or without gears? Picking a short gear will give you a quick acceleration while the power source (you = the engine) stays the same.
This is the whole point of having gears. Honda just decided they wanted a topspeed of 240-250 km/h and didnt want to compromise on a long 6th gear (which I think they should have to safe fuel at the highway, because if you want to be quick you downshifr anyway). So they kept all gears jumping back in vtec on redline shift. You notixe if you change before redline, it also drops you out of vtec in the next gear. Talking ap1 ratios. On a long 6th it would have bounced back from 5th redline to 2, 3, 4 or 5k rpm deoending on the ratio and dropping out of vtec. But would have given us a low rpm highway possibillity. How often do you redline 5th gear anyway? Anyway, they kept it pure and didnt give us a long 6. With a long 6 they could have given us a higher final drive from the factory to get quicker of the line, and still have acxeptable higway rpm. Yes I think the s2000 is not a fast launcher off the line. Unfortunately. Which sucks at daily driving. The car is a beast once in vtec. It comes alive at speed. Especially above most speedlimits...
Therefore im super interested in Spitfires experience of the shorter fd.
Hope everybody understand now. If you dont agree, feel free to tell me why. Its off topic, but we are here now anyway.
So, in short, Spitfire, do you feel the difference in "power"? Do you feel you accelerate faster? If so, how much?? Or do you feel it was a waste of money?
10-03-2018, 11:02 PM
#186
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I do think Car Analogy is the conscience of S2ki, or at least this thread.
Anyway...
Yes, 4.57's are fun to drive compared to stock.
You still reach a nice top speed in 6th at
and that's fun too with the shifter beeper going off BEEEEEEEEP!What's especially nice is that it reaches top speed no matter what, top down, uphill, it just goes.
For DD it's also nice, it doesn't really matter, 3rd or 4th, it picks-up.
Even after all those years I do sometimes still feel I have to shift up in 6th at 100km/h but then I realize "Oh.. no... 4.57's"
As far as I know the Richmond Gear 'Double Diamond' 4,57 final drive sets are no longer produced so if I ever have to swap s2k's the diff comes with me.
The 4.57's are noisy at certain speeds.
Maybe the ultimate driveline setup would be a F20, AP2 gearbox with a 4.44 final drive.
10-06-2018, 06:13 AM
#187
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Here is the answer from Motul England regarding my Mix:
"The way of getting an SAE 110 oil is clearly not by mixing a viscosity grade oil 90 with a 140. Besides, GEAR 300 75W-90 is for non-Limited Slip Differential while GEAR COMPETITION 75W-140 is indeed a LSD formulation so mixing both would just lead to some ugly result... Less worst would have been to mix GEAR 300 LS 75W-90 with GEAR COMPETITION 75W-140 because in that case both products are indeed for LSD. See TDS attached. Anyway, the recommendation for this differential is just “API GL-5 – SAE 90”, because it’s a Torsen so purely mechanical only, therefore GEAR 300 75W-90 is just perfect for that. Viscosity wise, there is absolutely no need to go for viscosity grade 110, unless of course if you’re using a low quality/performance product and then you would be looking for more viscous (so 110), but not too much (like 140), in order to increase protection. But GEAR 300 75W-90 being already the highest performance product available in our range (100% Synthetic, Ester, Racing), no need really to try to go for 110, it will do more than the good required on this vehicle. Concerning API, API GL-4 is fully covered by GL-5 because of high requirements and performance so no problem in using a GL-5 product for a GL-4 recommendation, especially on a differential where mechanical stress is higher than on any other component of the drivetrain. Hope this helps. "
"The way of getting an SAE 110 oil is clearly not by mixing a viscosity grade oil 90 with a 140. Besides, GEAR 300 75W-90 is for non-Limited Slip Differential while GEAR COMPETITION 75W-140 is indeed a LSD formulation so mixing both would just lead to some ugly result... Less worst would have been to mix GEAR 300 LS 75W-90 with GEAR COMPETITION 75W-140 because in that case both products are indeed for LSD. See TDS attached. Anyway, the recommendation for this differential is just “API GL-5 – SAE 90”, because it’s a Torsen so purely mechanical only, therefore GEAR 300 75W-90 is just perfect for that. Viscosity wise, there is absolutely no need to go for viscosity grade 110, unless of course if you’re using a low quality/performance product and then you would be looking for more viscous (so 110), but not too much (like 140), in order to increase protection. But GEAR 300 75W-90 being already the highest performance product available in our range (100% Synthetic, Ester, Racing), no need really to try to go for 110, it will do more than the good required on this vehicle. Concerning API, API GL-4 is fully covered by GL-5 because of high requirements and performance so no problem in using a GL-5 product for a GL-4 recommendation, especially on a differential where mechanical stress is higher than on any other component of the drivetrain. Hope this helps. "
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10-07-2018, 10:10 AM
#188
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Thanks for posting the Motul answer.
And eventhough I could go prancing around saying "I told you so, I told you so" I'm not because I think this answer is not really right and they are using the wrong reasons.
First you CAN mix base oils to get any viscosity you like.
I admit, I also thought one had to get a 'proper' SAE110 base oil but you do not.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...VpiL8LRmikt19a
This is a link from a Google search leading to a 12Mb ExxonMobile pdf from 2017 about oil.
Go to page #33 (showing in the green bar) and see how they mix different base oils in different ratios to get different properties but kinda the same viscosity gear oils.
Mixing base oils is not the issue here, they do the same with engine oils, there is a list of 5 different 5W-30's on page #28.
And I'm disappointed Motul never mentioned that mixing ADDITIVES dilutes them.
And THAT'S my point.
Also, one can not simply translate a 1999 (this is important) SAE 90 GL-5/6 into 2018 SAE 75W-90 GL-5.
But I guess we covered this enough - with facts - and I hope there is concensus about this reasoning.
And IMO Motul is downright wrong by saying GL-5 covers GL-4 and you really CAN NOT use GL-5 in a GL-4 spec part.
GL-4 is very specific about safety for yellow metals (used for synchro's for example) and GL-5 may contain additives that are not.
Finally, the S2000 puts 177kW through a 7" high offset ring & pinion final drive in a casing that holds less than a quart of oil.
That little bit of oil has to deal with all the ring & pinion stress AND serve a Torsen LSD that will change the locking bias based on oil.
That oil needs to be good.
And eventhough I could go prancing around saying "I told you so, I told you so" I'm not because I think this answer is not really right and they are using the wrong reasons.
First you CAN mix base oils to get any viscosity you like.
I admit, I also thought one had to get a 'proper' SAE110 base oil but you do not.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...VpiL8LRmikt19a
This is a link from a Google search leading to a 12Mb ExxonMobile pdf from 2017 about oil.
Go to page #33 (showing in the green bar) and see how they mix different base oils in different ratios to get different properties but kinda the same viscosity gear oils.
Mixing base oils is not the issue here, they do the same with engine oils, there is a list of 5 different 5W-30's on page #28.
And I'm disappointed Motul never mentioned that mixing ADDITIVES dilutes them.
And THAT'S my point.
Also, one can not simply translate a 1999 (this is important) SAE 90 GL-5/6 into 2018 SAE 75W-90 GL-5.
But I guess we covered this enough - with facts - and I hope there is concensus about this reasoning.
And IMO Motul is downright wrong by saying GL-5 covers GL-4 and you really CAN NOT use GL-5 in a GL-4 spec part.
GL-4 is very specific about safety for yellow metals (used for synchro's for example) and GL-5 may contain additives that are not.
Finally, the S2000 puts 177kW through a 7" high offset ring & pinion final drive in a casing that holds less than a quart of oil.
That little bit of oil has to deal with all the ring & pinion stress AND serve a Torsen LSD that will change the locking bias based on oil.
That oil needs to be good.
10-07-2018, 12:21 PM
#189
Finally, the S2000 puts 177kW through a 7" high offset ring & pinion final drive
allowed in my differential but 221 horsepower eventually gets to the rear wheels. Agree a suitable lubricant is necessary. I wish, though that all the horsepower from the engine gets to the rear wheels. I seem to lose quite a bit in the gearbox before it even gets to the differential. I can only measure horsepower at the rear wheels.-- Chuck
10-08-2018, 01:17 AM
#190
API GL6 is obsolete, and has been for sometime.
Cheers,
Guy