BirdShot = the new RoadRage!



Thank you for making & posting this very detailed report.
Like Slalom44 said: how much more proof do we need this engine likes and lives well on thin oils.
It looks like the load on components in the F20/F22 is pretty low - even at high revs - eventhough the specific output is "ok"
It's probably load devided by revs, so the higher the revs, the less load per square mm even with higher loads.
(if you know what I mean )
So as long as there is enough oil pushed around by the oil pump there is little wear.
One could call the "wear" minimal keeping the autocross events in mind.

Nevertheless I think going to a (thin) 30 weight is preferred, with a little more HTHS (depending on the brand).



The diff oil report is impressive!
I mean the way the report was done.
The results are what one would expect after such a long OCI, but not too bad.
You can actually see the ring gear through the drain hole when you use a small (LED) light.
Please let the diff drain overnight to avoid oil drops falling in your eye



Now.. (I have to ask)..

How much would a report like this cost if a private customer would ask for one?

Especially the diff oil report & ferrograph report.

You're lucky to work where you do

 

This is just my opinion, and I apologize if it offends anyone. But to suggest that it's OK to use a SAE20 oil in the F20/22 engines based on this report is inconclusive. What I see here is an extrodinarily well built formula (total formulation) using SAE20 base stock blends that held up well/protected for 2000 miles in a F20 engine, that was driven the way it was designed to be driven.

I guess you can tell that I cringe whenever the disussion turns to viscosity being the great panacea in tribology.

 

I honestly have no idea what they cost (ferro report) I see results and send report recommendations but I have nothing to do with pricing. They are probably not economical enough for the average guy and his passenger vehicle to do with any kind of regularity. Typical customers for this kind of thing are testing VERY expensive machinery or machinery that if a failure occurs it means expensive loss of production. Standard testing for the diff or transmission probably cost the same as engines.

Yes, those of us in my department are very fortunate to have access to this stuff

 

Don't get me wrong, if Honda says we should be using an SAE 30, then that's what we should use. I'm not suggesting to anyone that they should go against those recommendations, but the facts (in my case) are interesting. I myself put a 30 back in the car.

 

I don't disagree with you. It's just nice to see more evidence that thinner oils aren't hurting our engines. There have been others that have posted good results using XW-20 and countless UOAs showing significant shearing of XW-30 without harmful consequences. I like seeing reports like this since it contradicts those that insist that thicker is better. The key IMO is to have good fluidity, yet a robust HTHS.

Personally I endorse a good 0W-30 for our engines.

 

I use 0W30 oil also, and on the S2000 change my differential, transmission, and engine oil everytime.

 

Looks good. If you plan on doing a lot of autox/track I might suggest a 5w40 or 10w40 as it will thin down to a 30 weight. Lots of us running a heavier weight have great results with it. I can tell you personally that there has been no loss of performance.

I wouldn't suggest 5w20. While it might not show wear rates that are a cause for concern remember that the bearings may require more 'protection' at the extreme performance end of use. I personally don't like the idea of very thin oil running between my bearings at 8k. Though I have no evidence to show motor failure increases or decreases with 20,30 or 40 weight oils.

Your diff fluid if the original oil was well beyond it's life. I think it's every 30k or 6 yeas if memory serves me.

 

Looking at the specs of the Kendall oil I think it is not a real special oil.
Special as in: it is formulated to perform - and have a HTHS - like a 30 weight.
The HTHS is 2,7 just like Mobil1EP 0W-20 @ 2,75, Amsoil ASM 0W-20 has a HTHS of 2,8

It all depends on how much HTHS an engine actually needs to survive.
Lugging a cold engine is much worse than revving a hot engine.

The HTHS is also a viscosity, btw.
Just measured in a different way and displayed in a different unit.
You can't really compare the cSt (kinematic) with the cP (HTHS) as the latter has the density into the calculation.
As we don't know - well.. at least I don't - how much the density changes when an oil is at 150C we can't compare units.
If we, for argument's sake, use the same density for defferent temps, the 20 weight oil is 7 cSt at 100C and 2,7 @ 150C.
An average 40 weight will be around 14 cSt at 100C and 3,7 at 150, while the 0W-40 oils could be as low as 2,9 @ 150C.
Keeping this in mind the whole thicker = better protection argument becomes pointless.
0W-40 oils can be almost AS THIN (and as "weak, give as little "protection") as 20 weights when it really matters.


So we're left with the fact the oil pump will get into bypass sooner (at lower revs) with a thicker oil in the sump.
As sump temps don't get into HTHS temp ranges it is the kinematic visc. that makes the difference here.
Thinner oil = more oil flow = more cooling = better.


Does this make me use or recommend a 20 weight?
No.

Almost... maybe

 

I read this twice but I see your logic

When your talking 150C temps (like you would see at the track), the difference in cSt between a 30 and a 40 is very small. So small that you have to wonder what your advantage really is when you factor in cold starts, varying temperatures and stop and go that a road going vehicle will see.

 

what are the general oil temps you might see in normal daily driving (say 70 degree day), and perhaps what you might see on a track when driven hard ?. Just curious on the approximate range ?, I think that would be helpful to know.