Well "the man" needs to use his words better I guess Something got lost in the translation here....

Single, bottom line questions please, and I'll try to sum it up

 

Sounds like we have confused each other. Some people have argued that the F22C retainers should be retrofitted to the F20C engine because they are stronger. I have suggested that they are stronger because they are heavier, and it is not necessarily a wise thing to retrofit them to the F20C.

You say the F22C engine is good for about 9K with no damage, which protects the F22C against minor overrevs. If so, that's great for the F22C, but it would not be protecting the F20C against overrevs at all. At least now the F20C retainers do protect against overrevs to some degree (estimates say up to about 10K), but they tend to crack while doing so.

So the question is what retainers should be used on the F20C. F20C? F22C? Something else? (I have personally voted for something else, buying a set of Ti retainers. They wear more in ordinary use, but they are supposed to prevent valve float all the way up to 11K. Not a great tradeoff for a street car IMO, but one I have chosen for my track car.)

 

As far as Ti retainers...I have not been able to get a solid answer from anyone as to what the service life is.

From what I've gathered from those who have been on s2ki for years and have used them first hand, the service life is 15k miles.

Form a business standpoint, and a daily driver standpoint, that is not going to cut it. At all. I can't have regular customers getting lazy like they do with an oil change and suffer engine damage from a deformed Ti retainer. It has to go the distance.

If I ever split my retainers, nothing but AP2 retainers are going to replace them. I have already calculated the installed height of the spring, the ID/OD of the retainer and how it accepts the spring, how the keepers accept the valve, and how the keeper/retainer combo preserve the original spring pressure. It was not a "on a whim, lets give it a try" kind of thing.

As far as it being OK'ed by a Honda engineer, they dropped the ball a long time ago. That's why we're all here in UTH, with dozens of our own solutions.

BTW, I think we've solved the Timing chain tensioner issue as well. The thread should be at the top of uth by now.

 

In short, if you don't over rev the AP1 then you're fine

 

I understand. Lots of track parts are not as durable as daily driver parts. People who install them have to recognize that you don't get something for nothing.

 

Very true.

Learning how to drive would be the best mod you can do

I've got about 25K very hard miles on my valve train right now that have been unchecked. I'm at 9k all the time, and some track and auto-x as well. I HAVE NOT over-reved, I'd know in an instant if I did.

I'm curious if the retainers can split without an over rev. I'll be pulling my valve cover on 8/5, well see

 

This is what I am really curious about, the long term durability if you don't over rev.

I have a new bottom end but still have an old head and am pretty sure the valve train is the weak link in normal use. I am curious how long my engine will last with an old top end.

 

If we could ever prove that they could split without an over-rev . . . that would be huge news (and of course not good).

 

Thanks for the advice. But anybody can make a mistake. The chances of doing so are a lot higher on the track, where pretty much every shift you make is at redline, and you are shifting 5-6 times per minute.

As you say, you know in an instant if you overrev. Unfortunately, that's still an instant too late.

 

True...

The best advice when driving agressively is don't deathgrip the shifter. Take the time to let it go where it's supposed to. If you hold it tight, you'll have no feel for it and easily pull a 3-2 mis-shift.