Notchy gear chanes after refurbished clutch master and slave cylinder
06-29-2016, 12:39 AM
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Notchy gear chanes after refurbished clutch master and slave cylinder
Car: Ap1 170,000km on the clock, new HD excedy clutch at 130,000km.
At 165,000km on the clock the s2000 lost all feel in the clutch pedal and I could not get into gears - prior to this (160,000km) it was silky smooth. Had the clutch lines blead, that seemed to fix the issue - at 170,000km the issue returned and again lost the ability to select gears. The clutch engagement was all the way at the bottom closer to the flywa at this stage.
For the sake of this topic: high enagement means engagement closer to your foot (opposite of firewall) meaning late engagement between shifts. Low engagement means closer to the firewall.
Ok so got my clutch master and slave refurbished cost me approx $550 AUD. I was so excited to hop back into my s2000 for those butter smooth shifts with these new clutch master amd slave cylinders fully disengaging the clutch - but to my demise THIS WAS NOT THE CASE. Car was soo notchy, nothier than before like it annoys me, it feels like im changing gears to a tractor. The clutch pedale feels good though, feels new, the engagement point is slightly biast to my foot (high) so 53-60% high to my foot (100% would indicate that engagement is right at the end of taking my foot of the pedal which would cause slipage probably). Ok I hate driving my s2000 atm it aggravates me I NEED TO FIX THIS. The clutch fluids are new, it cant be that. No clutch slipage at all at WOT. What is weird is that when im facing downhill while pressing the breaks the clutch gear changes BRIEFLY IS SMOOTH, then goes back to notchy. Pumping the clutch in and out while in neutral seems to fix the issue slighly making the biast of the engagement closer to my foot at solid 60%. Warmed up the car gear changes are slightly better too still notchy. Before the clutch master and slave the bite point was closer to my foot 65% when I pumped the clutch heaps and gear oil was warm - this would make the gear changes very smooth most likely due to the factthat the bubbles in the clutch lines were compressed.
FYI notchy gear changes are for every gear.
What May be the probable causes from researching this:
1. A s2000 specialist said that refurbishing clutch master and slave is a huge fail because it chnages the hydrolic pressure in the cylinders and cause poor disengagement/ clutchmovement.
2. Bad clutch pedal adjustment. Prior to the clutch master and slave fix the car had more free play and the engagement was closer to my foot. Now there is WAY LESS FREE PLAY. Im hopping its this.
3. New transmission oil - the oil is 2.5 years old and has 20,000km on the clock. Why do I think this is not the full reason for notchy gear changes? Because before the fix my gear changes managed to be smooth and when going downhill in my car gear changes softed up. Nothing magically happened in the mechanic shop to make the gear oil total shit. Unless from anyone elses experience this can happen?
4. Clutch not fully disengaging.
5. Worst case scenario, clutch is FU**ED and its burnt out inside highly doubt it though.
Please help
i have already spent $500 on clutch stuff I want this fixed
Sorry about my typing, did this on my phone - thankyou
At 165,000km on the clock the s2000 lost all feel in the clutch pedal and I could not get into gears - prior to this (160,000km) it was silky smooth. Had the clutch lines blead, that seemed to fix the issue - at 170,000km the issue returned and again lost the ability to select gears. The clutch engagement was all the way at the bottom closer to the flywa at this stage.
For the sake of this topic: high enagement means engagement closer to your foot (opposite of firewall) meaning late engagement between shifts. Low engagement means closer to the firewall.
Ok so got my clutch master and slave refurbished cost me approx $550 AUD. I was so excited to hop back into my s2000 for those butter smooth shifts with these new clutch master amd slave cylinders fully disengaging the clutch - but to my demise THIS WAS NOT THE CASE. Car was soo notchy, nothier than before like it annoys me, it feels like im changing gears to a tractor. The clutch pedale feels good though, feels new, the engagement point is slightly biast to my foot (high) so 53-60% high to my foot (100% would indicate that engagement is right at the end of taking my foot of the pedal which would cause slipage probably). Ok I hate driving my s2000 atm it aggravates me I NEED TO FIX THIS. The clutch fluids are new, it cant be that. No clutch slipage at all at WOT. What is weird is that when im facing downhill while pressing the breaks the clutch gear changes BRIEFLY IS SMOOTH, then goes back to notchy. Pumping the clutch in and out while in neutral seems to fix the issue slighly making the biast of the engagement closer to my foot at solid 60%. Warmed up the car gear changes are slightly better too still notchy. Before the clutch master and slave the bite point was closer to my foot 65% when I pumped the clutch heaps and gear oil was warm - this would make the gear changes very smooth most likely due to the factthat the bubbles in the clutch lines were compressed.
FYI notchy gear changes are for every gear.
What May be the probable causes from researching this:
1. A s2000 specialist said that refurbishing clutch master and slave is a huge fail because it chnages the hydrolic pressure in the cylinders and cause poor disengagement/ clutchmovement.
2. Bad clutch pedal adjustment. Prior to the clutch master and slave fix the car had more free play and the engagement was closer to my foot. Now there is WAY LESS FREE PLAY. Im hopping its this.
3. New transmission oil - the oil is 2.5 years old and has 20,000km on the clock. Why do I think this is not the full reason for notchy gear changes? Because before the fix my gear changes managed to be smooth and when going downhill in my car gear changes softed up. Nothing magically happened in the mechanic shop to make the gear oil total shit. Unless from anyone elses experience this can happen?
4. Clutch not fully disengaging.
5. Worst case scenario, clutch is FU**ED and its burnt out inside highly doubt it though.
Please help
i have already spent $500 on clutch stuff I want this fixed Sorry about my typing, did this on my phone - thankyou
06-29-2016, 02:25 AM
#2
Fluid is not leaking from the reservoir? Try thoroughly re-bleeding the brake fluid. If that doesn't work, you may have bad clutch disc and/or pressure plate.
Sorry about that.
Sorry about that.
06-29-2016, 06:13 AM
#3
Would you mind providing some details as to which manual transmission fluid's currently in the transmission and which brake fluid you're using for the clutch? And perhaps if the motor mounts and transmission mounts were ever changed?
It's also interesting as to how the cost of having both the master and slave cylinders refurbished over in Australia seems to be a lot more than buying them brand new here in the States.
Sorry to see that you're also having issues.
06-29-2016, 05:21 PM
#5
My story is very similar to to yours. I was having notchy shifts. Sometimes couldn't get into next gear. Lots of shift resistance. Car an exedy crap clutch put in by PO. Over the course of 2 years ownership and about 30k miles I bled the system multiple times. Adjusted clutch rod play. Replaced MC. Replaced Slave cylinder. Replaced trans fluid.
Each of these helped a little. But then things would get worse again. Even at its best, it was never the smooth shifting machine I've read about.
Finally the craptastic exedy failed, in the typical mode, spring fell out of friction disk, jammed the PP.
So when disassembled, I saw the clutch was never properly lubed. Its vital to get this right, and use the correct grease, or shifting will never be right.
So basically, I think you'll be able to improve things with bleeding and adjusting play, but your exedy clutch doesnt have much life left anyway (typical is 20k miles). So plan on doing it right next time. Honda friction disk and release bearing and pilot bearing. Honda PP or Act PP. Ap1 flywheel or lightweight aftermarket chromoly flywheel. Use Honda urea grease. Make sure you know what is supposed to be greased and how much.
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Each of these helped a little. But then things would get worse again. Even at its best, it was never the smooth shifting machine I've read about.
Finally the craptastic exedy failed, in the typical mode, spring fell out of friction disk, jammed the PP.
So when disassembled, I saw the clutch was never properly lubed. Its vital to get this right, and use the correct grease, or shifting will never be right.
So basically, I think you'll be able to improve things with bleeding and adjusting play, but your exedy clutch doesnt have much life left anyway (typical is 20k miles). So plan on doing it right next time. Honda friction disk and release bearing and pilot bearing. Honda PP or Act PP. Ap1 flywheel or lightweight aftermarket chromoly flywheel. Use Honda urea grease. Make sure you know what is supposed to be greased and how much.
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06-29-2016, 08:14 PM
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Thankyou for the replies 
Ok so the gear oil is Honda MTF.
The car has the Honda Ap1 flywheel and the excedy HD plate (do excedy really have a life expectancy of 20k miles new?) essentially are you saying that excedy clutches are crap? Farout I thought there was good reviews on it
Im not sure if my mechanic said he bleed the clutch system and put new brake fluid in there I will ask what he put in.
Also can you guys tell me where I can buy these clutch master and slave cylinders, new in Australia they are like $800 thats without fitting.
One engine mount is split, but prior the the clutch master and slave replacement they were still split and I was getting butter gear changes, ocassionally i get butter changes now?
SYMPTOMS:
Gear changes at a stop: notchy/ thud occassionally
Gear changes at 2.5k rpm: usually notchy and there is the thud (rare occasions smooth changes though thud still present)
Gear changes at 3krpm to 4k+: notchy and on occassions smooth
Ok so the gear oil is Honda MTF.
The car has the Honda Ap1 flywheel and the excedy HD plate (do excedy really have a life expectancy of 20k miles new?) essentially are you saying that excedy clutches are crap? Farout I thought there was good reviews on it
Im not sure if my mechanic said he bleed the clutch system and put new brake fluid in there I will ask what he put in.
Also can you guys tell me where I can buy these clutch master and slave cylinders, new in Australia they are like $800 thats without fitting.
One engine mount is split, but prior the the clutch master and slave replacement they were still split and I was getting butter gear changes, ocassionally i get butter changes now?
SYMPTOMS:
Gear changes at a stop: notchy/ thud occassionally
Gear changes at 2.5k rpm: usually notchy and there is the thud (rare occasions smooth changes though thud still present)
Gear changes at 3krpm to 4k+: notchy and on occassions smooth
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06-30-2016, 05:02 AM
#8
DOT 4 is fine. Honda MTF is fine. Symptoms don't sound good. You may need to pull the tranny, again.
06-30-2016, 05:58 AM
#9
Originally Posted by Jahmellowy
...prior the the clutch master and slave replacement ... I was getting butter gear changes, ocassionally i get butter changes now?
Its like 15 min work if you have a lift, start to finish. Otherwise add time to get car up on jackstands...
Air in the lines is the most common reason for difficult shifts, and its not easy to get the air out unless you do gravity method. So mechanics often have a hard time getting this right with this car, as they try and imploy more traditional techniques.
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06-30-2016, 08:02 AM
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Car analogy in all honesty I think your right (im not trying to avoid the whole concept of screwed clutch just doesnt make sense when there is no slipage and the clutch bite feels strong).
The weirdest thing about this car right now is that on hills, especially my drive way, the gear changes smoothen themselves and they are butter???? Maybe the airbubbles move somewhere? Another weird thing that worked prior to the cluth master and slave cylinder refurbish was "pumping the clutch" this is where i would repeatedly clutch in and out to compress the bubbles - this would also smoothen the gear changes now but not totally - driving on hills seems to totally make them smooth?
My mechanic is the traditional type, the one size fits all sorta repairer, for this reason I feel like he may not know much about my car and I am following steves advice on changing mechanics to a dedicated sports car mech.
I will ask himabout what method he used and reitterate what you said.
Whats the deal with hills? Is this the bubbles shifting location or gear oil slushing around making things smoother?
FYI I have pretty much 0.8-0.9cm (8.5mm) of clutch free play - i think thats seriously low , I think there needs to be more? Yay or nay?
Thankyou all again
The weirdest thing about this car right now is that on hills, especially my drive way, the gear changes smoothen themselves and they are butter???? Maybe the airbubbles move somewhere? Another weird thing that worked prior to the cluth master and slave cylinder refurbish was "pumping the clutch" this is where i would repeatedly clutch in and out to compress the bubbles - this would also smoothen the gear changes now but not totally - driving on hills seems to totally make them smooth?
My mechanic is the traditional type, the one size fits all sorta repairer, for this reason I feel like he may not know much about my car and I am following steves advice on changing mechanics to a dedicated sports car mech.
I will ask himabout what method he used and reitterate what you said.
Whats the deal with hills? Is this the bubbles shifting location or gear oil slushing around making things smoother?
FYI I have pretty much 0.8-0.9cm (8.5mm) of clutch free play - i think thats seriously low , I think there needs to be more? Yay or nay?
Thankyou all again